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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    Yours are the only twins anyone should consider Click here to enlarge

    Fully optioned out GFs + downpipes, inlets, outlets, has got to be close to the cost of a single turbo I would imagine. Granted most people already have some if not all of those other mods when it is time to upgrade their turbo(s)
    Yeah man definitely pros and cons both ways, cost-wise and hassle-wise.

    On the ST front between O2 issues and burning of valve covers/AC lines/heat protecting your entire underhood/burning air filters or making an inlet in some cases/overall fitment issues/PCV limitations/bottom mount draining issues/legalites/etc sometimes a ST isn't all that either. For most FBO cars looking for a pretty simple install and elegant look and serious performance, there is a "new kid in town" that has applied about a decade of oversights to the equation. Probably should join the slick marketing campaigns all around these days and call them Stage 8.

    Rob

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    Yours are the only twins anyone should consider Click here to enlarge

    Fully optioned out GFs + downpipes, inlets, outlets, has got to be close to the cost of a single turbo I would imagine. Granted most people already have some if not all of those other mods when it is time to upgrade their turbo(s)
    I would definitely add pure turbos to the list of twins anyone should consider buying.

    I've run mine 20-23 psi (what I consider the sweet spot for my 135i) for around 4 years now without a hiccup. The hardware has been reliable and the company is great to deal with as well.

  3. #28
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    The turbos arent the limiting factor on this platform for 93 but the high compression these engines run.

    A properly built and decompressed n54 will get over 600 whp, I've been running around 630 whp for over 12 months on the gc's with no issues.

    The problem with all these so called single turbo kits is they bring a host of other issues and they are not as reliable as people want to make you believe.

    A properly set up twins are less problematic as long as you dont ask to much of them.
    Bmw 1 series M 11.4@127mph

  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by martymil Click here to enlarge
    The turbos arent the limiting factor on this platform for 93 but the high compression these engines run.

    A properly built and decompressed n54 will get over 600 whp, I've been running around 630 whp for over 12 months on the gc's with no issues.

    The problem with all these so called single turbo kits is they bring a host of other issues and they are not as reliable as people want to make you believe.

    A properly set up twins are less problematic as long as you dont ask to much of them.
    You are saying a fully built and decompressed to XX:X will make over 600whp on 0% ethanol pump 93 on GCs on a dynojet? Weird, I have yet to see that dyno.

  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    You are saying a fully built and decompressed to XX:X will make over 600whp on 0% ethanol pump 93 on GCs on a dynojet? Weird, I have yet to see that dyno.
    For years we have seen the glory pump gas numbers to be around 500-525whp (with most every hybrid including our own) but usually they fall in the 450-475whp range for the more basic setups with more conservative tuning.

    Then we have our first set of RB GF 93 octane results come in a few months ago, which at 18-19psi made 516whp and at 25psi made 582whp. This a an extremely basic setup of a car, nothing special at all, made by some 3rd party, on some non-biased shops dynojet, and all on a 1st dyno attempt.

    To say compression is the only pump gas limitation vs. power potential is ignorant at best, as a very high flow turbine side (ie. housing and wheel) of which can minimize backpressure even under higher flow (boost) is extremely critical to making the most out of octane on any turbocharged engine.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by martymil Click here to enlarge
    The problem with all these so called single turbo kits is they bring a host of other issues and they are not as reliable as people want to make you believe.

    A properly set up twins are less problematic as long as you dont ask to much of them.
    I do agree with all of this 100%.

    Rob
    Last edited by Rob@RBTurbo; 01-14-2020 at 10:57 AM.

  6. #31
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    When I say 93 is the limitation its taking into consideration that the car is full FBO and has the biggest twin turbos from the three leading manufactures like Vtt GC's, Rb gf's or pure and a ff style manifold.

    The problem also is the different blends of 93 in the USA as most run 10% of ethanol so dyno numbers will vary from country to country as here in OZ they gas companies arent alowed to run any.

    Running lower comp is far more forgiving on 93 and you can play with boost and timing to make up for the lack of compression.

    its not that hard to get mid to high 500's on these engines on 93 but getting over 600 takes a bit more finessing, especially on the tunning side.

    Not saying you cant but its a lot harder as its limited by the factory ecu, I have seen personally seen a perfectly tuned engine on the factory ecu make more power using a syvecs which will be my next step with a set of stage 1 cams.
    Bmw 1 series M 11.4@127mph

  7. #32
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    All makes sense but the discussion was based around ST's vs. Twins on pump gas, and we were trying to find a twin setup that can be closer to comparable to ST octane to octane, and our answer was that the twin setup that has the best flowing hotsides is going to put up the best fight in that regard. Then when we start comparing the hot sides (which in this case is mainly the turbine housings and to a lesser degree the manifolds), it is a no brainer of which are the most favorable.

    All of that out of the way we should start seeing (finally) some twins making significantly better power on pump (or "octane" to "octane") than ever has been known prior, on the regular, by many, shortly.

    Rob

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    I'm just glad to start seeing rb and vtt testing/pushing their turbos on 93 as that's what most customers are most interested in most other countries outside of USA.

    e85 is easy power but brings a host of issues in terms of mechanical reliability and quality of fuel, not getting into that here but that's what made me start running and tunning my car on 93.

    I even converted a few single turbo be all end all believers back to twins after taking a ride in my beast.

    The problem with most is that they are hung up on numbers and the fact is most cant even put those numbers down to the tarmac, so having that much power is useless unless you have spent the time and money on the proper suspension/chassis inc tyre setup and last but not least braking.

    Properly setup twins will come very close in terms of top end power to a single psi for psi until it hits the octane limit but the twins will smash the single on lower rpm's especially between 2000 to 4000 rpm range and seriously that's where we spend most of our driving on the street unless you have a death wish.
    Bmw 1 series M 11.4@127mph

  9. #34
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    93 octane @ 25psi- 582 whp I think that is better than I have seen a single turbo put out on 93. More than a 6466 makes on 93 octane. Why would a 6466 make less on 93 but more on 100% E85? Or, why would twins make more on 93 and less on E85?

  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    93 octane @ 25psi- 582 whp I think that is better than I have seen a single turbo put out on 93. More than a 6466 makes on 93 octane. Why would a 6466 make less on 93 but more on 100% E85? Or, why would twins make more on 93 and less on E85?
    I think it is just a demonstration of the flow ability of these new twin housings, not to say a ST can't do the same or better, as they should be able to do at least the same if/when attempted. At larger power goals (ie. 700+whp) there is no question that an appropriately sized ST will leave even these newest large housing twins more and more in the dust.

    Rob

  11. #36
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo Click here to enlarge
    At larger power goals (ie. 700+whp) there is no question that an appropriately sized ST will leave even these newest large housing twins more and more in the dust.
    People think you just bolt on a large single and that's it. There are other considerations when going to 700+ whp.

    I've said there is a sweet spot the hybrids provide and that really is that ~600 whp range. Beyond that, might as well change platforms as you will need to redo the whole car to put it down reliably.
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  12. #37
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    100% agree.

    These cars want to kill you and are not very drivable with any more than 600rwp unless all you do is drive in a straight line and then its still a big handful.

    We made a single kit and unless your aiming the car straight you can forget bringing it on boost as it will put you into a ditch as it still wants to lane swap at over 130mph, its just lights up and it's just nasty brutal power.
    Bmw 1 series M 11.4@127mph

  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by martymil Click here to enlarge
    100% agree.

    These cars want to kill you and are not very drivable with any more than 600rwp unless all you do is drive in a straight line and then its still a big handful.

    We made a single kit and unless your aiming the car straight you can forget bringing it on boost as it will put you into a ditch as it still wants to lane swap at over 130mph, its just lights up and it's just nasty brutal power.
    I think having a car that goes so fast/hard it can kill you is exactly what attracts people. Or at least have the potential to. Unfortunately, the reality is most people look at numbers, peak hp, and never look at the transient response or torque values throughout the rpm range (and how well it holds the torque).

  14. #39
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    This single turbo kit I had a hand in is bat $#@! bonkers, in the hands of inexperieced drivers is just downright dangerous and is basically for race/track use only once you start turning it up over 20psi.

    It has a 300rwk dump over a narrow 500 rpm when it comes on boost, it pins you so hard in the seat that made the previous tuner violently ill and loose his lunch just after two logs lol.
    Last edited by martymil; 01-15-2020 at 07:21 PM. Reason: spell check
    Bmw 1 series M 11.4@127mph

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