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  1. #1
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    N54 turbo vendor wars Part XXII - Censorship, demands, failures, resolutions, and the truth

    I always like for you guys to be able to discuss whatever turbo talk you want to discuss. Where things get tough is when vendors start attacking each other and then I get put in a hard place.

    BimmerBoost wants honest turbo discussion. If a turbo vendor has or had issues, a vendor should fix those issues and move forward.

    Behind the scenes I have multiple vendors trying to fight it out on the forums which drags me into it and of course then there are threats about posting elsewhere, pulling sponsorship, etc. Just forum politics which can get very dirty.

    If there are turbo issues I can not in good faith sweep anything under the rug. Yes, this place costs money to run so I do need to cater to vendors as why pay to advertise if you are getting unfairly attacked? The idea is to generate business, not lose it. I won't have the forum turn into 'he said, she said' flame war nonsense.

    My position is, if to retain a vendor I have to serve as a censor, I'd prefer not to. I also would highlight this publicly if necessary. I'm not a tool to be used to clean up anyone's mess. I do not like being threatened. I do like helping people or vendors resolve issues though and having great turbo options available to the user base which I believe we do.

    All that censorship would lead to is the information being posted elsewhere.

    We all know things happen, offerings evolve, technologies evolve, and products change over time. Nobody is perfect.

    Is a professional discussion of turbo machining and technology moving forward too much to ask for?

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    If a vendor wants to pretend to be the best, they should back that up without the smoke and mirrors. We have been doing this with complete forthrightness over the past 2+ years of shipments here:
    https://www.bimmerboost.com/showthre...(inc-RB-Stats)

    Also just because VTT has been "good" (comparatively) over the past year or so, doesn't mean we have forgotten the past:
    https://www.bimmerboost.com/showthre...B-class-action

    We have outlined the GC lineups products changes over the years, in pretty clear detail; it is obviously seen as "truth" and requested to be pulled from the publics eyes here:
    https://www.bimmerboost.com/showthre...729#post811729

    And THEN to top it off, "hey we are ahead of the curve":
    https://www.bimmerboost.com/showthre...Turbine-Wheels

    Get real VTT, your turbo products are just as much junk today as they were a couple years ago (and beyond). Worse yet you STILL have no idea what the root cause of your failures, a hint for you is that it is not the material you've been swinging back and forth with either. Perhaps this tip will help you from "Heavily Investing" in yet another "fix" 6 months from now.

    Thanks,
    Rob
    Last edited by Rob@RBTurbo; 12-06-2018 at 03:16 PM.

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    I just want to point out this is not a VTT vs. RB thing as there is more to it than that with outside dealers, customers, etc.

    The point I want to focus on Rob is discussion for the benefit of users which means information so they can decide.

    I appreciate the way both you and Tony fight for your products. Neither of you though wants a constant state of attacking the other which is why we have rules against vendors attacking each other.

    Bringing up potential issues is important of course.

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    It would be interesting for the vendors to give Turbo Flow Rate (lb/min) like single turbos have. I know they will not spend the money making compressor maps. But flow numbers would accurately give people an idea of the power they are able to expect out of them. This is how people judge what single turbo to go with imo based on their needs.


    It would also be interesting to see the vendors directly compare apples to apples products and list the pros and cons they both agree upon. Like the pros and cons of using TD03 thrust vs TD04 etc. Or this wheel profile or that and why it is superior with you know data to back it up. Why our waste gate rattle fix is superior to brand X. What Brand Y is doing wrong with their wastegate fix. Why brand Z's metallurgical content is a risk. Why the throat diameter of brand X cast manifold helps or hurts etc. It would all help the customers make more informed decisions. I don't see why they can't have a civil discussion other than of course tony being tony but he should let his paid handler make the posts/responses. Same with MMP.


    As far as failures go I assume everyone will try and keep them swept under the rug as we have always seen. Even with vendors publicly denying warranty claims if said failures are made public. Or requiring oil analysis for warranty claims etc.


    I have no horse in this race. I have a single turbo and don't care for twins. The above information would benefit all customers and help them make correct informed buying decisions.
    N54 ACF 6466 Meth MOTIV / E70 #1 JBD / E70 #2 JBD

    Got Boost?
    Click here to enlarge

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo Click here to enlarge
    If a vendor wants to pretend to be the best, they should back that up without the smoke and mirrors. We have been doing this with complete forthrightness over the past year here:
    https://www.bimmerboost.com/showthre...(inc-RB-Stats)

    Also just because VTT has been "good" (comparatively) over the past year or so, doesn't mean we have forgotten the past:
    https://www.bimmerboost.com/showthre...B-class-action

    We have outlined the GC lineups products changes over the years, in pretty clear detail; it is obviously seen as "truth" and requested to be pulled from the publics eyes.
    https://www.bimmerboost.com/showthre...729#post811729

    And THEN to top it off, "hey we are ahead of the curve".
    https://www.bimmerboost.com/showthre...Turbine-Wheels

    Get real VTT, your turbo products are just as much junk today as they were a couple years ago (and beyond). Worse yet you STILL have no idea what the root cause of your failures, a hint for you is that it is not the material you've been swinging back and forth with either.

    Thanks,
    Rob

    Well that escalated quickly Click here to enlarge

  6. #6
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I just want to point out this is not a VTT vs. RB thing as there is more to it than that with outside dealers, customers, etc.

    The point I want to focus on Rob is discussion for the benefit of users which means information so they can decide.

    I appreciate the way both you and Tony fight for your products. Neither of you though wants a constant state of attacking the other which is why we have rules against vendors attacking each other.

    Bringing up potential issues is important of course.
    The truth and some humility is all we'd ever wanted here sir, not the constant sugar coating and bogus claims.

    Rob

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo Click here to enlarge
    The truth and some humility is all we'd ever wanted here sir, not the constant sugar coating and bogus claims.

    Rob
    Everyone can market their own way.

    I just want to keep things professional or at least have things going toward that direction.

    Vendor wars ultimately just hurt the forum.

  8. #8
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Everyone can market their own way.
    Yeah- well not real cool when we are supporting marketing by deception.

    Even the question asked in the recent thread (by you) "hey what material is lighter?". What do you get? This:
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Tony@VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    The weight is very similar between the two. I wish we could add weight savings to the list of advantages, but in reality, they do weigh just about the same.
    It is actually a bit heavier from what we have seen. So why not just say "It is a bit heavier but we feel that it is worth the trade off." But nah, "it is just about the same" is what you get instead. Some may think its small stuff, but it is a constant output which is ridiculously avoidable just by having a bit of integrity and answering this without the deceit.

    Rob

  9. #9
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo Click here to enlarge
    It is actually a bit heavier from what we have seen. So why not just say "It is a bit heavier but we feel that it is worth the trade off." But nah, "it is just about the same" is what you get instead. Some may think its small stuff, but it is a constant output which is ridiculously avoidable just by having a bit of integrity and answering this without the deception.
    I really don't know the weights. Without the wheels being weighed, who really knows?

  10. #10
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I really don't know the weights. Without the wheels being weighed, who really knows?
    I do as I have weighed them and from my experience the Mar M is a bit heavier. Have an example in the link above. All in all t'was just a smaller point, that most everything that is stated is either enhanced or sugar coating something else... especially the bigger things such as with the GC's "fixes" which are usually trying to cover up the wreckage of their yesterdays.

  11. #11
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo Click here to enlarge
    I do as I have weighed them and from my experience the Mar M is a bit heavier. Have an example in the link above. All in all t'was just a smaller point, that most everything that is stated is either enhanced or sugar coating something else... especially the bigger things such as with the GC's "fixes" which are usually trying to cover up the wreckage of their yesterdays.
    I would love for the weight data to be posted which is great data to have.

    Look Rob, we're falling into the trap this thread wanted to avoid.

    All of the turbos vendors have had failures, nobod excluded. VTT posted about a new process. Cool, an update and changes being made. Why should turbo upgrade remain stagnant anyway?

    I just want the discussion to be handled professionally.

  12. #12
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    VTT posted about a new process. Cool, an update and changes being made. Why should turbo upgrade remain stagnant anyway?
    A new process? You mean going back to Mar-M, again? Doesn't sound new, if has already been done (didn't work then either).

    See this post and Chris say "we did an analysis".
    https://www.bimmerboost.com/showthre...817#post764817

    Then see this post where they used a new material (Hint: It was Mar-M).
    https://www.e90post.com/forums/showp...6&postcount=26

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    We endeavor to have transparency with what we do here at VTT; that's why we invite people to the shop to see where we do things, check out the balancers, touch hardware, even planning on a dyno day in the near future.


    So quoting me on a text to a competitor (Jesse at Pure) isn't exactly revolutionary ground breaking news. I get along with most of the competitors and sometimes we share info. Nothing proprietary, mind you, but a workable professional relationship.


    We have had some failures. Everyone does. Our number on the GC family after selling close to 150 sets is right around 5%, which was not good enough in our book. That's why when we saw them occur we did an internal analysis, went back to our turbine supplier and demanded new turbines with new material. We've had those a while; turbines in hand and all GC's as of over a month ago are good to go.


    No one likes having a failure. When you do, you fix it. It's not very complicated in the grand scheme of things.


    Also not complicated; riling up competitors with pricing structures that they don't like and then having them tripping over themselves to attempt to "get" us.


    We're going to keep pushing limits, keep shaking things up, and continue to offer the best performing and best priced options out there. We're really excited to see these in the hands of our customers. As always, if any customers have issues, email me, and I'll help drive it to resolution.


    Chris

    So they'd already done the Mar-M change on the GC "1.3's". Didn't help. Then to 11/12 blade variants with the GC "1.7's". Didn't help. Then back to Inconel 713LC on the GC "2.0s" with the GT28 Casting. Clearly not helping. Now back to Mar-M on the GC "2.3s" with the GT28 Casting. Not going to help.

    All in the quest for something that simply doesn't break? Where does the madness end?

    Rob

  13. #13
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo Click here to enlarge
    All in the quest for something that simply doesn't break? Where does the madness end?
    When we're in electric cars?

    Let's see what happens. You have your process. They have theirs.

    Market decides.

    Let's cool off and just let vendors do their thing with their products.

    I have some major back end functionality issues to address.

    Also, Rob, you wanting to raise issues is great but remember the fine line before it is seen as an attack. Not that other vendors haven't attacked you but at some point where does that madness end?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Market decides.
    Indeed it does and that is great, but it helps for them to have the correct info to work with as well. This thread should do it.Click here to enlarge

    Rob

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    So are we done here? Can we get back to the fun stuff?

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    All this back and forth just makes you both seem like childish hacks, but at least it's out there so the market can choose to avoid both. Keep it up Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nyt Click here to enlarge
    All this back and forth just makes you both seem like childish hacks, but at least it's out there so the market can choose to avoid both. Keep it up Click here to enlarge
    All worth the while it is, with more to come. Click here to enlarge

  18. #18
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo Click here to enlarge
    All worth the while it is, with more to come. Click here to enlarge
    Now it's just a bash thread.

    More info is always welcomed but I think this has run its course.

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