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    Single Turbo Tuning Issues - Trims Getting Stuck @ 25

    Background: Just wrapped up installing an ACF top mount kit with a PTE6062 with ADV o2 sensors, running E30 (E33 according to my ethanol sensor) fuel through a bucketed Fuel-It Stage 2 LPFP. Running the latest ST firmware, along with the BMS ST E85 TS BEF. All adaptations were reset numerous times (besides battery and throttle), o2 pressure and reset options were disabled in the JB4, ADV box was checked in MHD when the BEF was flashed.


    The Issue: Trims want to get stuck at 25 with no rhyme or reason, which throws AFR out of whack to 20.0+ and sets off an SES, probably causing the car to go into open loop fueling. I drove the car for about an hour this morning and threw a light probably 10 times during the course of the drive. Once codes are cleared, the car drives fantastic until it happens again; which could be 30 seconds or 30 minutes later.


    Click here to enlarge

    Cruise.csv

    AFR Stuck.csv

    HighwayModerateThrottle.csv

    ModerateThrottelSES.csv


    I've attached four logs of various driving: 1) just cruising on the highway with no issues and no SES, 2) A log of AFR/trims getting stuck randomly, 3) a quick moderate throttle application with no codes/issues, 4) a quick moderate throttle application where AFR/trims get stuck.


    I first thought this might be related to the ADV o2 sensors, but when watching Trims 1 & 2, as well as AFRs 1 & 2 simultaneously trims usually got stuck before AFRs got screwy. This makes sense as Chris says these ADV sensors are more fuel sensitive.


    Any help would be appreciated as I'm fairly certain all the hardware/software has been installed properly. I feel like I've quadruple checked everything at this point.

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    O2 faults are almost always faulty sensors, one way or another. The ADV sensors have been sort of hit and miss. For some they work great, others end up having to go back to NGK or stock. I don't know why that is.
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    O2 faults are almost always faulty sensors, one way or another. The ADV sensors have been sort of hit and miss. For some they work great, others end up having to go back to NGK or stock. I don't know why that is.
    I reached out to CKI prior to making this post, and without looking at logs (which I sent him a little earlier and waiting to hear his reply), he seemed to think it was a fueling issue in the tune instead of the o2s despite the code, but that didn't make much sense to me since there are so many people running these BMS single turbo BEFs with no issues.

    Immediate failures or non-compatibility of both sensors doesn't make sense either though.

    I also know some others have had similar codes and issues with the ADV sensors, but most of those people had extended harnesses in one way or another. I ordered two short ADV sensors and have them plugged directly into the correct OEM harnesses. Everything has been sleeved and protected and is not burnt through.

    Having o2 sensor issues, especially 2, would be absolutely devastating considering all the money invested in the ADV sensors to avoid any headaches. Swapping these out would not be fun.

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    Hopefully it turns out to be something simple. But I'm not familiar enough with the ADVs to offer any useful diagnostic advice. Click here to enlarge
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    My recommendation is to disable the jb4 and monitor your O2 readings directly through inpa. That should show you have kind problem you are having.

    I suspect this is a tuning issue.
    09 BMW E92 335i:Top Mount EFR 7670 / Motiv / AP Racing / Wavetrac / TC Kline [Full Modlist]
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Hopefully it turns out to be something simple. But I'm not familiar enough with the ADVs to offer any useful diagnostic advice. Click here to enlarge
    I appreciate you looking over everything regardless.

    Update: Still having the same issue pretty regularly.

    Chris @ CKI was nice enough to even try to modify one the BMS ST E85 TS BEF that I was using in case it was something related to altitude (most of my driving is done between 1,000-2,000FT), to which I flashed, reset adaptations, and even deselected the ADV sensor option on MHD (as instructed to by Chris) with no luck. On the Jb4 end, I have o2 pressure and resets disabled.

    He says he's never seen a sensor fail in this way, especially both, which points to something else than the physical sensor itself. For the record, I'm not using the burble option (never have) and have both rear o2s installed in the ACF downpipe.

    I've been using the past few days on my long work commute to not only break in the clutch, but keep a close eye on what's happening with this trim/AFR issue. Here's some more stuff I've noticed:

    - Trims always get stuck at 25 before anything to do with AFRs get out of sync.
    - Most of the time, it seems to be trim2 getting stuck, but trim1 will get in on the action sometime as well, and sometimes both will get stuck.
    - Even before the car seems to trip a SES, if I clear codes through the JB4 Mobile app as soon as I notice trims get stuck, they will become unstuck and go back to normal.
    - Bank 1 trims seem to only mildly fluctuate under normal conditions, while bank 2 trims seem to be more erratic and bounce around a bit more. Maybe coincidentally, but this is also the bank where trims seem to get stuck the most often.
    - When trims get stuck, 95% I'm coasting in gear. Add some throttle to accelerate and trims don't follow, just stay at 25. The other 5% is under low throttle conditions. This has never seemed to happen at moderate to high throttle inputs.
    - I can get the trims to stick on command by coasting off throttle in gear for more than 5 seconds or so.

    The Spec 2+ clutch will be through the 500 mile break in period by tomorrow, and I'll also have some time to remove the cowl, engine cover, and splash shield underneath to triple check everything is seated securely and hasn't worked itself loose, but I'm skeptical that's the issue considering how well the car runs otherwise. Even the small WOT action I've given it, everything seems to be kosher until I let off the accelerator and trims get stuck.

    I would just pony up for a custom tune, but I'm not sure that's the issue here. Too many people running around with fully functional cars on the BMS BEFs, and too many people running the ADV sensors with no issues. I was hoping this would be an easy fix, but a few of us are scratching our heads at this point.

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    As I said, you won't see what is really going on with JB4 logs. If it is indeed a sensor problem, your best bet is to monitor the various voltages through INPA. I was able to trace down mine to a heater failure with one of the post cat sensor.

    Also, you should give boostbox a try.
    09 BMW E92 335i:Top Mount EFR 7670 / Motiv / AP Racing / Wavetrac / TC Kline [Full Modlist]
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cloud9blue Click here to enlarge
    As I said, you won't see what is really going on with JB4 logs. If it is indeed a sensor problem, your best bet is to monitor the various voltages through INPA. I was able to trace down mine to a heater failure with one of the post cat sensor.

    Also, you should give boostbox a try.
    Didn't mean to ignore your post earlier, but if I don't find anything obvious tomorrow, that's more than likely what I'll be doing. I already have the cables and INPA installed, but typically use the JB4 Mobile for logging/codes, MHD for flashing/clearing adaptations, and INPA as a last resort. I suppose this could be something associated with the post cat sensors, just strange that it would max out trims and throw a pre-cat sensor code instead of a rear sensor.

    I've been considering Boostbox since the beginning. And I'm not that far from Motiv, so this summer may call for a switch if this OTS BMS flash isn't cutting it by then.

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    i know others have had adv sensor issues but like chris said both getting stuck at 25 is unusual.

    hopefully you get it sorted out. if not down the road terrys suggestion is also worth a shot with using ngk/NTK sensors. ive always liked ngk products as they seem to hold up well and perform more consistency.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by chadillac2000 Click here to enlarge
    Didn't mean to ignore your post earlier, but if I don't find anything obvious tomorrow, that's more than likely what I'll be doing. I already have the cables and INPA installed, but typically use the JB4 Mobile for logging/codes, MHD for flashing/clearing adaptations, and INPA as a last resort. I suppose this could be something associated with the post cat sensors, just strange that it would max out trims and throw a pre-cat sensor code instead of a rear sensor.

    I've been considering Boostbox since the beginning. And I'm not that far from Motiv, so this summer may call for a switch if this OTS BMS flash isn't cutting it by then.
    Might be post cat related as well. You never really know with this car lol.

    I had the exact same issue a few years back, with the afr for one of the banks get stuck at 25 on jb4 log. It went away after a few track days. A year later, it turned into a post-cat code, which I narrowed it down to the heater failure I mentioned earlier.

    Never quite understood how does the O2 adaptation on these cars work...
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    As Terry has said we have many users with ADV that have no issues and have others with this same issue. I personally had this exact issue with my car on the ADV. Got a couple of new ADVs and same thing, did a month of troubleshooting and gave up. Got some NTK sensors and all is back to normal kicking ass.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, S55s, N63s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cloud9blue Click here to enlarge
    Might be post cat related as well. You never really know with this car lol.

    I had the exact same issue a few years back, with the afr for one of the banks get stuck at 25 on jb4 log. It went away after a few track days. A year later, it turned into a post-cat code, which I narrowed it down to the heater failure I mentioned earlier.

    Never quite understood how does the O2 adaptation on these cars work...
    Absolutely. That would actually be quite a relief if it was something related to the rear o2s instead of the fronts. I'll check the rear o2s tomorrow and see if everything looks good there.

    This guy pretty much had the exact same issue as me and somehow solved it by removing some pins in the DME, but I believe his were only acting up because of a harness extension:

    http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50423

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Payam@BMS Click here to enlarge
    As Terry has said we have many users with ADV that have no issues and have others with this same issue. I personally had this exact issue with my car on the ADV. Got a couple of new ADVs and same thing, did a month of troubleshooting and gave up. Got some NTK sensors and all is back to normal kicking ass.
    Huge bummer. Throughout all my due diligence, it seemed that the ADV sensors were 100% the way to go when going to a single turbo to avoid problems. There weren't any threads or feedback about them giving these false readings and making trims/AFRs getting hung up, or that they could possibly be altitude dependent, or even any bad reviews aside from you and Terry not really pushing them for ST users.

    Were you having the exact same issue with the trims sticking at 25 and throwing AFRs off, Payam?

    I'd like to wait until tomorrow when I can look over all connections again before making judgement, but as I've said, this would be devastating to tear into this project again after I just wrapped it up to swap these out and invest even more money. Fingers crossed it's something simple when I get the covers off everything.

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    Hopefully someone can come up with a solution with these codes who run single turbo.
    ______________________________________
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by chadillac2000 Click here to enlarge
    Absolutely. That would actually be quite a relief if it was something related to the rear o2s instead of the fronts. I'll check the rear o2s tomorrow and see if everything looks good there.

    This guy pretty much had the exact same issue as me and somehow solved it by removing some pins in the DME, but I believe his were only acting up because of a harness extension:

    http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50423
    That particular problem I had was related to the oem connector and the oem 6 wire set up versus the adv 5 wire. I solved that problem for a few weeks then got a new one, as yet unsolved.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rac Click here to enlarge
    That particular problem I had was related to the oem connector and the oem 6 wire set up versus the adv 5 wire. I solved that problem for a few weeks then got a new one, as yet unsolved.
    I appreciate you responding! I've read over a few of your threads now.

    Care to elaborate? New problem related to the ADV sensors?

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    Do you have a DP FIx installed by chance? My car (hybrid twins, so slightly different) was having a similar issue (brand new NGK sensors), but only one bank was pegging out at 35. Randomly and intermittently. I found that when they were pegging out, that bank's o2 reading was stuck and it would not change - never richer or leaner. Found the prior owner had a DP fix installed permanently which I have heard is bad mojo. I removed it and have not had an issue since.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by chadillac2000 Click here to enlarge
    I appreciate you responding! I've read over a few of your threads now.

    Care to elaborate? New problem related to the ADV sensors?
    Ah yeah. Different issue altogether. Initially I thought a sensor died but I now suspect the dme has learnt to dislike what it is receiving. I don't want that throw cold water on your situation so I won't go into detail as it may not be relevant. I haven't read this thread in detail, when I get a chance I will and repost any thoughts I have.

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    Dme gives you 5 or 6 seconds grace (I can't recall exactly) when you coast where it expects to see an ultra lean reading from the sensors. You can see this affect if you change your burble mode settings, put them at maximum duration for fuel addition and you will probably delay the onset of the codes by that amount of time. Doesn't solve your problem but just means you can coast a few extra seconds without issue.... The stock connector has an additional circuit that doesn't allow the dme to see the lowest values it's expecting to see from the advs. Make sure your using the supplied connector from Chris, then check this affect is being generated by something else that might increase resistance like a dodgy or dirty connection. Pull the plugs apart and make sure they are clean and fit together solidly. Check the relevant connections at the dme and Jb4 as well.
    Maybe after that try the ntk's, seems like a few people who had issues solved them with the ntk sensor.
    Logging with jb4 is a pain because you can't see what's happening behind the scenes for this particular purpose, you want to see how lean the afr is really going on deceleration.

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    Have you ruled out an exhaust leak?
    It doesn't take much of a leak pre-o2 to cause problems.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by langsbr Click here to enlarge
    Do you have a DP FIx installed by chance? My car (hybrid twins, so slightly different) was having a similar issue (brand new NGK sensors), but only one bank was pegging out at 35. Randomly and intermittently. I found that when they were pegging out, that bank's o2 reading was stuck and it would not change - never richer or leaner. Found the prior owner had a DP fix installed permanently which I have heard is bad mojo. I removed it and have not had an issue since.
    Nope. I've never used a DP fix, even when before going ST.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rac Click here to enlarge
    Ah yeah. Different issue altogether. Initially I thought a sensor died but I now suspect the dme has learnt to dislike what it is receiving. I don't want that throw cold water on your situation so I won't go into detail as it may not be relevant. I haven't read this thread in detail, when I get a chance I will and repost any thoughts I have.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rac Click here to enlarge
    Dme gives you 5 or 6 seconds grace (I can't recall exactly) when you coast where it expects to see an ultra lean reading from the sensors. You can see this affect if you change your burble mode settings, put them at maximum duration for fuel addition and you will probably delay the onset of the codes by that amount of time. Doesn't solve your problem but just means you can coast a few extra seconds without issue.... The stock connector has an additional circuit that doesn't allow the dme to see the lowest values it's expecting to see from the advs. Make sure your using the supplied connector from Chris, then check this affect is being generated by something else that might increase resistance like a dodgy or dirty connection. Pull the plugs apart and make sure they are clean and fit together solidly. Check the relevant connections at the dme and Jb4 as well.
    Maybe after that try the ntk's, seems like a few people who had issues solved them with the ntk sensor.
    Logging with jb4 is a pain because you can't see what's happening behind the scenes for this particular purpose, you want to see how lean the afr is really going on deceleration.
    Thanks for sharing. I could definitely understand why the burble option would delay this. I've learned I can usually keep them from getting stuck by manually tapping the throttle as light as possible. Just that little bit of input every few seconds keeps them from sticking. I'll elaborate on the rest of your post below:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by iminhell1 Click here to enlarge
    Have you ruled out an exhaust leak?
    It doesn't take much of a leak pre-o2 to cause problems.
    Almost 100% certain. Even today I double checked. Everything is torqued down properly to the head with brand new gaskets, the v-band where the bank 1 & bank 2 manifold converge sealed perfectly and I used high temp silicone, I used an actual twin scroll gasket between the manifold and exhaust housing, 3" v-band clamp is nice and tight; also with silicone, and the downpipe to midpipe + midpipe to muffler connections are not leaking. No funny noises either that would indicate a typical exhaust leak.

    ---------------------------------------------------------

    I spent the majority of today going over a bunch of possible issues. I removed the cowl, the engine cover and the splash shield underneath to visually inspect that all four o2 sensors had not been compromised or were plugged up wrong. I found that both the ADV sensors and associated wiring still looked brand new and were plugged into the right OEM connectors. Just to clarify, I'm not using any harness extensions. ADVs plug and play connector straight into the OEM harness, just as the stock o2 sensors came out. On to the rear sensors -- same deal. Everything plugged up properly and not burnt. Removed the DME lid, and nothing out of the ordinary.

    From there I moved on to disabling the JB4 and checking a few things out via INPA including codes and live voltage inputs on the sensors. Checking out the past code history, there's some new ones on here that the JB4 Mobile App were not showing:

    2C2D - lambda probe in front of catalytic converter, thrust control, bank 1
    2C2E - lambda probe in front of catalytic converter, thrust control, bank 2
    2C31: Lambda probe in front of catalytic converter, trimming control
    2C6B: Lambda probe behind catalytic converter, system check

    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

    I cleared the errors, reset all lambda adaptations through INPA for the first time ever, exited and started the car up.

    Click here to enlarge

    I was mostly paying attention to the bottom two rows, showing lambda voltage in front of cat bank 1 + lambda voltage behind cat bank 1 / lambda voltage in front of cat bank 2 + lambda voltage behind cat bank 2.

    Voltages stayed all well and good at idle, during revs, and even during normal driving for the most part. However, whenever I'd coast off throttle in gear for close to that 5 second mark, voltages for both front o2 sensors went to around 3.1V, which moved the values into the red zone and likely throwing the car into open loop fueling and sticking the trims at 25. I imagine if the voltage stayed below that 2.7 mark, things would be okay.

    At this point though, unless anyone has any ideas or if things don't magically clear up over the next few days, I'll likely be placing an order for some new replacement front sensors. Something I'm very much not looking forward to after spending so much time on everything recently.

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    Try pulling the Jb4 and double checking no issues with it, before giving up. You'll get a wastegate code that will limit boost to ~5psi but don't worry about it. Log via mhd what your deceleration afrs are.

    As an aside, not that many 6062s out there, would love to see how it goes when your up and running.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by chadillac2000 Click here to enlarge
    Almost 100% certain. Even today I double checked. Everything is torqued down properly to the head with brand new gaskets, the v-band where the bank 1 & bank 2 manifold converge sealed perfectly and I used high temp silicone, I used an actual twin scroll gasket between the manifold and exhaust housing, 3" v-band clamp is nice and tight; also with silicone, and the downpipe to midpipe + midpipe to muffler connections are not leaking. No funny noises either that would indicate a typical exhaust leak.

    Silicone can kill an O2.
    So depending on what you actually used ...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rac Click here to enlarge
    Try pulling the Jb4 and double checking no issues with it, before giving up. You'll get a wastegate code that will limit boost to ~5psi but don't worry about it. Log via mhd what your deceleration afrs are.

    As an aside, not that many 6062s out there, would love to see how it goes when your up and running.
    Almost 100% positive this isn't a JB4 issue. It was fine before, and seems fine in all respects now. Considering the o2s were "upgraded" to the ADVs and that's where all the codes are pointing, I can't see how it wouldn't be related to those.

    Agreed on the 6062. In fact, I hadn't seen any real reviews from any one running this setup, but it sounded like exactly what I was looking for. From what I've been able to test while fighting these o2 gremlins, spool time will not be an issue Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by iminhell1 Click here to enlarge
    Silicone can kill an O2.
    So depending on what you actually used ...
    As instructed by Payam when installing a few of the v-band connections, a really thin layer of Permatex Ultra Copper Maximum Temperature RTV Silicone Gasket Maker was used to make sure everything was all sealed up and to ensure no leaks at all. We're talking just enough to create a seal, not nearly enough to get on anything else or somehow come in contact with any part of the o2 sensor downstream.

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    Permatex ultra copper is sensor safe. It's not the silicone
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