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    N54 Twin Turbo Hybrids vs. Reliability Update (inc. RB Stats)

    All,

    Almost everyday there is a forum member talking about N54 Aftermarket Twins, usually in a negative fashion, which is understandable to a large extent and is a big reason for posting this update. It also seems like every day there's another vendor with a new setup, out with the old and in with the new they may say! Or maybe there is a new one in the pipeline that is thought could be the bees knees, mmmm cool! Or perhaps there are some out there that are seemingly good to go already, hmmm but who knows it is the internet right?

    Ultimately we have seen it all before, vendors come and go, or they change products constantly, outsource more, and tend to shove off the old into the abyss; while never quite dialing in the last round, then optimistically approach the next round (rinse and repeat), and/or disappear altogether. While the consumer, left in a daze of trying to figure out what is what or what is up or down, still hopes that someday an aftermarket turbo vendor can deliver to them what they are simply wanting: A Higher power product offering that works as advertised and of course doesn’t suffer with any longevity issues and all for a fair price.

    While the above may come off memory suppressive or pompous (on our behalf), make no mistake we have been there and done that and certainly have taken our fair share of lumps over the years with this platform. However with enough time, care, and pride in your brand comes improvements such that Turbo building is down to a science. Turbo build improvements aside there also has been much platform evolution since 2010, to think about all these upgraded turbos that ran OEM inlets until the Inlet craze began in 2015, who would dream of doing such a thing today? You live and you learn.

    At any rate times have certainly changed and we figured it was time to give a GOOD update on REAL quality numbers from our very own product portfolio including all units shipped from 1/1/17 to current date (and some prior). In this specific timeframe we have sold and shipped ~175 sets (350 units); and also in this time we have had only 1 unit come back and it was due to a customer/install issue by the customers own admission. Even if we were to take ownership, this puts us at a meager 0.3% failure rate, so not too bad. So quality has been absolutely amazing and the customer complaints have been CRICKETS for a very long time. Best yet anytime there is a phone call or email it is only from a happy customer, and the only turbos we see coming back are either simply core returns or fairly old setups.

    RB N54 Product Portfolio Stats:
    RB OEM’s/RB OEM Billets (DIY and Full setups):
    1) In production for ~16 months.
    2) ~85 sets shipped since introduction.
    3) 0 complaints and 0 returns.

    RB Ones (DIY and Full setups):
    1) In production for ~12 months.
    2) ~35 sets shipped since introduction.
    3) 1 complaints that yielded 1 return.

    RB Twos (Limited to 5 beta sets):
    1) In production for 4 months.
    2) 5 sets shipped since introduction.
    3) 0 complaints and 0 returns.

    RB Next Gens:
    1) In production for 2.5 years.
    2) ~165 sets shipped since introduction.
    3) 2 complaints that yielded 2 returns (Note: Both occurrences in 2016).

    RB Next Gen Plus:
    1) In production for ~16 months.
    2) ~35 sets shipped since introduction.
    3) 0 complaints and 0 returns.

    Super RB Stealths*:
    1) Latest version in production for ~14 months.
    2) ~5 sets shipped.
    3) 0 complaints and 0 returns.

    Super RB EVO 15T/17T/19T*:
    1) Latest version in production for ~14 months.
    2) ~25 sets shipped.
    3) 0 complaints and 0 returns.

    *Product stats including all shipments from 1/1/17, at which point some build techniques were changed to improve quality, which since has successfully demonstrated a 0% failure rate to date.

    In conclusion a couple years ago we would’ve argued that a 10% failure rate is reasonable, hey that is only 1 out of 10 with a problem right? Anyway these days we’d beg to differ in that if as a vendor you are seeing more than a 1% failure rate; either you have terrible luck with your install techs or customer base or there is something that could be improved in the turbo build itself (or perhaps the environment around them).

    Thanks,
    Rob
    Last edited by Rob@RBTurbo; 03-02-2018 at 01:14 PM.

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    Thanks for the transparency on the turbo stats Rob. I think everyone who cares about the N54 platform should be happy that our options for hybrid twins have been getting more reliable and less expensive.

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    Damn, thats a crazy high success rate.

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    It would interesting if we could get data like this from every N54 twin manufacturer from all time.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fordbaxter Click here to enlarge
    Thanks for the transparency on the turbo stats Rob. I think everyone who cares about the N54 platform should be happy that our options for hybrid twins have been getting more reliable and less expensive.
    Agree it definitely is a "win win" for the modern consumer AND the turbo vendor, we do not want to have any issues either and keeping quality high means we can also keep prices lower due to less overhead.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It would interesting if we could get data like this from every N54 twin manufacturer from all time.

    We highly suspect failure rates on the typical product offerings for most vendors, especially those who were around in the infantile N54 platform days (ie. the running OEM inlets on upgraded turbos days), were inline with our own... which we eluded to the above that were around 10% failure rate over say 0-1.5 years. During a span of time like this some customers were repeats while others never had any issues. Some of it could've been luck in the build (from the usage of commonly thought acceptable balancing equipment at the time), manufacturing defects in components, customer usage patterns, improper supporting mods, etc.; or some combination of all the above.

    Regardless the consistency along with the failure rates certainly weren't the perfection we are seeing today. In short we have found that with the right package of parts and build quality all of the Hybrid issues simply have become a confirmed "non-existent".


    Thanks,
    Rob
    Last edited by Rob@RBTurbo; 03-05-2018 at 02:32 PM.

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    Kudos to the transparency (and the low failure rate).

    -Rich

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    There are only 3 people in the whole world with a complaint since start of 2017 is that what you are saying here ?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Aus335iGuy Click here to enlarge
    There are only 3 people in the whole world with a complaint since start of 2017 is that what you are saying here ?
    Actually it is better... out of all RB units shipped since 1/1/17 we have only had one unit come back. More on that in post #1 paragraph #4 of this thread.

    Rob

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    40k miles now on my next gens. Still going strong, keep it up Rob!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo Click here to enlarge
    Actually it is better... out of all RB units shipped since 1/1/17 we have only had one unit come back. More on that in post #1 paragraph #4 of this thread.

    Rob
    If that doesn't shut people up nothing will.

    Then again, these are forums.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    If that doesn't shut people up nothing will.

    Then again, these are forums.
    The forum parrots will not see it or will simply discount it and keep on doing what they do most likely, as keeping the drama alive is certainly more appealing.Click here to enlarge But the proof is in the pudding and there are certainly reliable aftermarket twins out there.Click here to enlarge

    Also while some vendors (and "testers") are hoping for a brighter N54 turbo hybrid future, while pushing out more pre-orders (or "testing") batches of unproven products; all of these units already have the historical track record to prove they work as advertised without the longevity issues. Due to the "quiet" nature of selling products these days, we anticipate the already lengthy periods of unproblematic product usage will further grow with a continued very high success rate.

    Rob
    Last edited by Rob@RBTurbo; 03-06-2018 at 01:03 PM.

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    I always enjoy Rob's subtle disses to other vendors. The best part is, he's usually right Click here to enlarge

    Awesome results Rob. Every Hybrid vendor has their own pros/cons, but you've got to appreciate transparency like this. You've come a long way since 2014-2015 when I first joined this platform. I would put your ethics/customer service up there with PURE.
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    Congrats on the recent results Rob. After reading through this however I have to ask, are you saying the 2014 era RB turbos were being manufactured with improper balancing equipment?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by weebles Click here to enlarge
    Congrats on the recent results Rob. After reading through this however I have to ask, are you saying the 2014 era RB turbos were being manufactured with improper balancing equipment?
    Weebles,

    If we were to say that our acquisitions of the latest Technology Balancing Turbomachinery has played no role in providing substantial quality improvements (or rather hasn't contributed to the consistent balancing perfection across all builds) then we'd certainly be lying. But using the word "improper" is not in the right context, as this is like saying a toothbrush is improper for brushing teeth... after the Sonicare was released. Both tools do a job but one with much more consistency and of higher effectiveness than the other. Turbomachinery advancements and availability have came a long way (for this industry) over the past several years.

    Not all have the latest offerings though and if one were to query all of the "mom and pop turbo shops" around the entire USA (even including some of our direct competitors) they'd find they are still using the same "improper" equipment we'd used then but still on this very day. Some are starting to make machinery improvements as well, while some are outsourcing more, it all comes with the times. We have been hell bent on bringing the cutting edge tools to our own fingertips, rather than letting someone else decide what is of perfection in quality. Outsourcing such functions is not typically the best way to get the best results, unless you know they are positively taking the time to perform said function to absolute perfection (good luck with that).

    So yes with this very large area of improvement we have found that using the latest and greatest machines allows 100% consistency in the product, and there is no doubt we are now TRULY building turbos at the same balancing levels (from component all the way to assembly balancing) as a massive player such as Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI).

    Thanks,
    Rob
    Last edited by Rob@RBTurbo; 03-07-2018 at 10:46 AM.

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    Fair enough, can't argue with that. Keep up the good work Rob.

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    This is a good thread - appreciate the transparency on the numbers. And yes, I realize it's bragging and promoting RB too Click here to enlarge, but nothing wrong with that in my book.

    I have not bought anything from RB except the famous PCV, but his long-term front-line involvement with the N54 carries a lot of weight - my guess is that he wouldn't still be around if RB wasn't making good products.

    It kind of sucks for the vendors who were on the N5X scene first - RB, VTT, etc. - because they did the hard work of breakin the new ground, and that comes with a lot of trial and error, as a natural course of things. And yes, they all had their share of 'issues' with turbos, etc. NOt a knock, that is expected and someone has to be first and do it. And those things that happened back in 2013 are still talked about like they were yesterday, by people who weren't even around then. Then you have turbo companies now that are newer, building on what RB, VTT, etc. learned and shared with the community, but never had to break the ground themselves and are also nowhere near as transparent with their specs, testing, etc. (Frankenturbo the exception lol, but that's a whole 'nother matter lol) Not knocking those newer companies at all, but I think it's just something customers need to keep in context when you hear about 'this company is best, never had failures, etc' but they also had the hard work done by someone else by the time they got here.
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    Definitely some truth to all of that sir, well said. Having 5+ years in the specific platform trenches (than most) and/or being around the earliest is going to show more struggles with time; especially when there was still much to learn in so many ways.

    But it is all well much was gained over the years too and some of the competition has been great and friendly, as it should be when there is plenty enough work to go around. Some of it, eh, not so much.Click here to enlarge However with all said competition came many new ideas and the desire for all to be the best, too. Without said competition we could not be certain that we'd have these quality figures we are seeing today either.

    All in all what is stated all the time is true, competition is GREAT for the consumer. Better products at better prices, I'm a consumer too so I can certainly appreciate it. Also happy to partake in it as well as show what is possible as part of this thread.

    We will see how it goes but we've contemplated updating this thread as a rolling log as issues arise as well- just to give a perspective to clear up some of the misinformation carried about all hybrids vs. longevity. In the meantime we will just keep doing what we do... keep on shipping.

    Rob
    Last edited by Rob@RBTurbo; 03-09-2018 at 10:54 AM.

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    Another month gone by with another ~15 sets of turbos shipped out and another month with 0 complaints with all units listed with production dates listed in post #1 .Click here to enlarge

    Rob

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    Its hilarious to see Rob portraying himself in such a high fashion. I'm probably one of the few that have been around long enough to remember him refusing to do anything about the mutliple members of this board that had smokey RB's. If my afternoon is slow maybe i'll go dig up some of those old threads to rehash old memories. Click here to enlarge
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  20. #20
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    Its hilarious to see Rob portraying himself in such a high fashion. I'm probably one of the few that have been around long enough to remember him refusing to do anything about the mutliple members of this board that had smokey RB's. If my afternoon is slow maybe i'll go dig up some of those old threads to rehash old memories. Click here to enlarge
    Just a portrayal of modern facts son.

    And if you mean "refusing" as in declining warranty, don't think you have your facts straight. But if you mean refusal of rebuilding RB's out of warranty for free (perhaps a year, two three, or more) and/or covering labor; then we'd likely agree on that "refusal". You may also want to realize, as indicated above, that your old references were likely surrounded by many guys out there running stock inlets on upgraded turbos pounding them into the ground to make up to 550rwhp. Feel free to dig up whatever ole bones you wish (there's no doubt there our there if you dig deep enough), but assure you that we are still around for a reason.

    Rob

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo Click here to enlarge
    Just a portrayal of modern facts son.

    And if you mean "refusing" as in declining warranty, don't think you have your facts straight. But if you mean refusal of rebuilding RB's out of warranty for free (perhaps a year, two three, or more) and/or covering labor; then we'd likely agree on that "refusal". You may also want to realize, as indicated above, that your old references were likely surrounded by many guys out there running stock inlets on upgraded turbos pounding them into the ground to make up to 550rwhp. Feel free to dig up whatever ole bones you wish (there's no doubt there our there if you dig deep enough), but assure you that we are still around for a reason.

    Rob

    This was back before anyone had an inlet upgrade available, "son." Do what you want, i just find it anoying you keep trying to portray yourself as the savior when people like me remember the days when you were basically booted from this website because of smokey turbos that you took no credit for... I find it hilarious that you just now started coming around after Tony got the boot.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    This was back before anyone had an inlet upgrade available, "son." Do what you want, i just find it anoying you keep trying to portray yourself as the savior when people like me remember the days when you were basically booted from this website because of smokey turbos that you took no credit for... I find it hilarious that you just now started coming around after Tony got the boot.
    Anyone? You mean anyone such as RB or VTT? Or others who are no longer in business lol.

    Anyway glad we could get you some humor into your day... life is too short to not be upbeat about something.Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo Click here to enlarge
    Anyone? You mean anyone such as RB or VTT? Or others who are no longer in business lol.

    Anyway glad we could get you some humor into your day... life is too short to not be upbeat about something.Click here to enlarge
    So for anyone who has a few minutes of time and wishes to look into the character of Rob, do a search and read the threads of users of this board "themyst" and "chuckD05." Might give some perspective on things.
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    The fact that Rob has to start a thread to claim "oh look, we finally got our $#@! together after 5 years" says plenty about his quality control or lack of it.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    So for anyone who has a few minutes of time and wishes to look into the character of Rob, do a search and read the threads of users of this board "themyst" and "chuckD05." Might give some perspective on things.
    LULZ @ lulz_m3 straight forgetting about the shovel to dig up bones, went straight for the backhoe! Speaking of "saviors"... thanks for the 2011-ish references! Just bit more digging there and you'd find yourself in China.

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