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    Single Turbo / PreTurbo O2 Sensor Placement

    I know a lot of people are recommending NTK O2 sensors due to their higher temperature range over the Bosch units but everywhere I look I read about how pressure in that location will skew AFR readings.

    "It is FACT that widebands are affected by the pressure induced by placing before the turbo. My original shop placed it before the turbo. I checked the difference between before and after and was material enough for me to change it. There is plenty of technical documentation on the effect include compensation curves if you choose to leave it before turbo.

    A pressure change of the measured gas gives a deviation of the sensor output signal of:
    IP(p) = Ip(p0) * p/(k+p) * (k+p0)/p0
    The factor k is depending on operation conditions “rich” or “lean” and is for the measuring gas from LSU test bench:
    klean gas = 0.47 bar krich gas = 0.39 bar"

    Has anyone explored this? Are there any plans to possibly build in a compensation table if needed?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Vertigo44 Click here to enlarge
    I know a lot of people are recommending NTK O2 sensors due to their higher temperature range over the Bosch units but everywhere I look I read about how pressure in that location will skew AFR readings.

    "It is FACT that widebands are affected by the pressure induced by placing before the turbo. My original shop placed it before the turbo. I checked the difference between before and after and was material enough for me to change it. There is plenty of technical documentation on the effect include compensation curves if you choose to leave it before turbo.

    A pressure change of the measured gas gives a deviation of the sensor output signal of:
    IP(p) = Ip(p0) * p/(k+p) * (k+p0)/p0
    The factor k is depending on operation conditions “rich” or “lean” and is for the measuring gas from LSU test bench:
    klean gas = 0.47 bar krich gas = 0.39 bar"

    Has anyone explored this? Are there any plans to possibly build in a compensation table if needed?
    @jyamona and @Aerotest are working on getting the new bosch ADV sensor working. It's in one of the threads from last week
    07 335XI(A008006) 6AT ~105K miles JB4 G5 ISO VSRF DP's
    09 135I(VK80379) 6MT. Race Project car.
    1) Install Modified Motiv 600 Kit[HTA3076R w/ tial .82] 2) Moton 4 suspension. 3) Build high flow intake manifold with multi-port fuel and relocate OFH 4) Build full cage possible rear diff upgrade 5) Complete staged twin setup with HTA4205R [w/Tial 1.16] 6) Complete dry sump system 7) Sequential maybe

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    That's a really odd coincidence. Twilight Zone.... Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Vertigo44 Click here to enlarge
    That's a really odd coincidence. Twilight Zone.... Click here to enlarge
    Here is the thread. http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...gly-rich-tunes
    07 335XI(A008006) 6AT ~105K miles JB4 G5 ISO VSRF DP's
    09 135I(VK80379) 6MT. Race Project car.
    1) Install Modified Motiv 600 Kit[HTA3076R w/ tial .82] 2) Moton 4 suspension. 3) Build high flow intake manifold with multi-port fuel and relocate OFH 4) Build full cage possible rear diff upgrade 5) Complete staged twin setup with HTA4205R [w/Tial 1.16] 6) Complete dry sump system 7) Sequential maybe

  5. #5
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    The big problem is the deviation window is to big at higher pressures so its not a constant. With the ADV sensor that window is very narrow and can be accounted for with the right table adjustments. WIP
    Formerly 3000GT MR

    Have a single turbo and/or tired of burning up O2 sensors? Ask me about the new ADV retro kits!
    Please Email me at ChrisKinnovations@gmail.com in lieu of PM's for fastest response on any topics.

    Click here to enlarge
    335i
    E92 2010
    Mods: VM 6466 top mount, VRSF IC, twin disk, and lots more!
    335i VFF900 E90 2009 RIP

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    I have ntk sensors pre and posy turbo. I see less than 4 tenth of a afr point variance between them. The variations are not in a consistent direction either pretty hard to split hairs on a system that has added variables like sample rate and internal feedback and control rates, then pair that with that logging rates and filters of the software you are using. Sounds like alot of tail chasing for no benefit.

    Ntk sensors just last longer, especially on ethanol and leaded fuels. Longevity is the primary reason for the switch imo

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    What is the NTK part number? I'm about due for new sensors anyway. Click here to enlarge
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    The part numbers for my car are, 24322 pre cat 1-3 and 24345 pre cat 4-6. and 25676 post cat 1-3 and 25613 post cat 4-6

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    No need for post cat o2's

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by andy_divers Click here to enlarge
    No need for post cat o2's
    What DME do you have? I disconnected and coded out my O2's on my last ST car and my trims only had half the control they normally do. It wasnt a full "limp" mode but it wasnt a full control mode. THis was on a 2009 IJEOS car and i ran it for a few weeks. After looking at the DAMOS tables, looks like there is a lot of degrade, aging, and confirming from the post cats. It would take a lot more than just coding them out to get the primary readings and DME happy. Can you elaborate more on your findings?
    Formerly 3000GT MR

    Have a single turbo and/or tired of burning up O2 sensors? Ask me about the new ADV retro kits!
    Please Email me at ChrisKinnovations@gmail.com in lieu of PM's for fastest response on any topics.

    Click here to enlarge
    335i
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    Mods: VM 6466 top mount, VRSF IC, twin disk, and lots more!
    335i VFF900 E90 2009 RIP

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    I simply meant they are not worth upgrading to the ntk, not that they could be deleted

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by andy_divers Click here to enlarge
    I simply meant they are not worth upgrading to the ntk, not that they could be deleted
    Damn, I was hoping you successfully coded them out.
    Formerly 3000GT MR

    Have a single turbo and/or tired of burning up O2 sensors? Ask me about the new ADV retro kits!
    Please Email me at ChrisKinnovations@gmail.com in lieu of PM's for fastest response on any topics.

    Click here to enlarge
    335i
    E92 2010
    Mods: VM 6466 top mount, VRSF IC, twin disk, and lots more!
    335i VFF900 E90 2009 RIP

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by andy_divers Click here to enlarge
    I have ntk sensors pre and posy turbo. I see less than 4 tenth of a afr point variance between them. The variations are not in a consistent direction either pretty hard to split hairs on a system that has added variables like sample rate and internal feedback and control rates, then pair that with that logging rates and filters of the software you are using. Sounds like alot of tail chasing for no benefit.

    Ntk sensors just last longer, especially on ethanol and leaded fuels. Longevity is the primary reason for the switch imo
    are you measuring both sensors independent of the DME and are you taking your measurement when BP is high? At idle where BP is low to non existent then they should read the same.

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    The rear sensor signal wires are unplugged on our race cars. Only way to avoid those 2c3x codes. Then you just disable the signal wire disconnected fault within the flash.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    The rear sensor signal wires are unplugged on our race cars. Only way to avoid those 2c3x codes. Then you just disable the signal wire disconnected fault within the flash.
    You don't get odd trim issues?
    Formerly 3000GT MR

    Have a single turbo and/or tired of burning up O2 sensors? Ask me about the new ADV retro kits!
    Please Email me at ChrisKinnovations@gmail.com in lieu of PM's for fastest response on any topics.

    Click here to enlarge
    335i
    E92 2010
    Mods: VM 6466 top mount, VRSF IC, twin disk, and lots more!
    335i VFF900 E90 2009 RIP

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    The rear sensor signal wires are unplugged on our race cars. Only way to avoid those 2c3x codes. Then you just disable the signal wire disconnected fault within the flash.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 3000gt MR Click here to enlarge
    You don't get odd trim issues?
    I think you guys may be talking past eachother - do you mean removing the two JB4 pins? Or do you mean physically removing the secondaries?

    I had understood the former (removing 19 & 20) to be necessary on IJE0S cars to avoid that open loop max lean situation.

    3KGT I thought you had removed those two pins awhile back with no adverse issues? Maybe i'm just adding to the confusion, haven't had much coffee today.
    [I]E88 N54 w stuff
    MB w205 c450

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135pats Click here to enlarge
    I think you guys may be talking past eachother - do you mean removing the two JB4 pins? Or do you mean physically removing the secondaries?

    I had understood the former (removing 19 & 20) to be necessary on IJE0S cars to avoid that open loop max lean situation.

    3KGT I thought you had removed those two pins awhile back with no adverse issues? Maybe i'm just adding to the confusion, haven't had much coffee today.
    I think i read to much into it. I'm on the same boat with the lack of coffee today. Only had 1 of my normal 2 venti americano's to ward off my sleeping meds this morning. Puts me in a brain fart for the day.

    Hows your car doing by the way Andrew? Haven't heard any updates as of late.
    Formerly 3000GT MR

    Have a single turbo and/or tired of burning up O2 sensors? Ask me about the new ADV retro kits!
    Please Email me at ChrisKinnovations@gmail.com in lieu of PM's for fastest response on any topics.

    Click here to enlarge
    335i
    E92 2010
    Mods: VM 6466 top mount, VRSF IC, twin disk, and lots more!
    335i VFF900 E90 2009 RIP

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Aerotest Click here to enlarge
    are you measuring both sensors independent of the DME and are you taking your measurement when BP is high? At idle where BP is low to non existent then they should read the same.
    I am logging all 3 sensors (2 ntks pre turbo and one standalone ntk in downpipe) at the same time. What I'm getting at is variances of all 3 sensors are too inconsistent to determine one way or another. They are moving around too fast to try and split any hairs

  19. #19
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135pats Click here to enlarge
    I think you guys may be talking past eachother - do you mean removing the two JB4 pins? Or do you mean physically removing the secondaries?
    Same difference. Except removing the signal pins only doesn't trigger o2 heater circuit fault codes and doesn't require me to go under the car. Click here to enlarge
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  20. #20
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by andy_divers Click here to enlarge
    I am logging all 3 sensors (2 ntks pre turbo and one standalone ntk in downpipe) at the same time. What I'm getting at is variances of all 3 sensors are too inconsistent to determine one way or another. They are moving around too fast to try and split any hairs
    I think the widebands are relatively unaffected by pressure. But the temperature does cook them eventually. Especially radiant heat. And then when we space them out to keep them cooler they get lazier as there is less exhaust flow over them. Net net it's good enough but would be nice to find a way to convert the car to a single bank and run one wideband post turbo some day.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 3000gt MR Click here to enlarge
    I think i read to much into it. I'm on the same boat with the lack of coffee today. Only had 1 of my normal 2 venti americano's to ward off my sleeping meds this morning. Puts me in a brain fart for the day.

    Hows your car doing by the way Andrew? Haven't heard any updates as of late.
    Think i'm on cup four...Blegh. I feel you brotha.

    Car is finally going to be back in my hands today or tomorrow - it's been off the road since May 12 IIRC. Swapped out the intercooler, some fluid flushes, and then waiting a few weeks for these stupid blackout headlights. They just arrived this morning so i'm hoping the shop can get them back on the car so I can drive it home tonight.

    This weekend i'll bump my thread with videos and pictures. It may be going open loop arbitrarily but dammit, at least it'll look decent doing so Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Same difference. Except removing the signal pins only doesn't trigger o2 heater circuit fault codes and doesn't require me to go under the car. Click here to enlarge
    Gotcha, makes sense. Well I just had those two pins yanked today, so when I pick the car up i'm praying this max lean situation is worked out. It fits the symptoms to a T so fingers' crossed.
    [I]E88 N54 w stuff
    MB w205 c450

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    Am I the only one that is not ok with the idea of removing sensors to avoid codes rather than addressing the issue and fixing it? Doing $#@! the "lazy" way scares the poo outta me.

  23. #23
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by The Convert Click here to enlarge
    Am I the only one that is not ok with the idea of removing sensors to avoid codes rather than addressing the issue and fixing it? Doing $#@! the "lazy" way scares the poo outta me.
    Its just the sensor aging calcs that they are disabling I think. Will wait and see how it works. Personally I'm hoping Jakes XDF gets launched soon.
    07 335XI(A008006) 6AT ~105K miles JB4 G5 ISO VSRF DP's
    09 135I(VK80379) 6MT. Race Project car.
    1) Install Modified Motiv 600 Kit[HTA3076R w/ tial .82] 2) Moton 4 suspension. 3) Build high flow intake manifold with multi-port fuel and relocate OFH 4) Build full cage possible rear diff upgrade 5) Complete staged twin setup with HTA4205R [w/Tial 1.16] 6) Complete dry sump system 7) Sequential maybe

  24. #24
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by The Convert Click here to enlarge
    Am I the only one that is not ok with the idea of removing sensors to avoid codes rather than addressing the issue and fixing it? Doing $#@! the "lazy" way scares the poo outta me.
    Just post some directions for us after you've worked out the fix. Click here to enlarge
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  25. #25
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Just post some directions for us after you've worked out the fix. Click here to enlarge
    Not criticizing terry It's not like you coded out the crank sensor. Have you noticed any issues with LTFT since you made the changes?
    07 335XI(A008006) 6AT ~105K miles JB4 G5 ISO VSRF DP's
    09 135I(VK80379) 6MT. Race Project car.
    1) Install Modified Motiv 600 Kit[HTA3076R w/ tial .82] 2) Moton 4 suspension. 3) Build high flow intake manifold with multi-port fuel and relocate OFH 4) Build full cage possible rear diff upgrade 5) Complete staged twin setup with HTA4205R [w/Tial 1.16] 6) Complete dry sump system 7) Sequential maybe

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