Close

    • Careful pushing your BMW F80 M3 or F82 M4 motor with PTF Bootmod3 E85 tuning - S55 turbo/engine issues

      PTF Bootmod3 software is great for tuning your F-Series BMW but the problem is suddenly there are people on forums or social media that think they are professional tuners and engineers due to remote tuning using the BM3 software. A guy on Instagram without an actual tuning business, store front, or engineering degree may not be an expert.


      This particular F80 M3 set the S55 platform quickest and fastest 1/4 mile pass record on the factory turbos. Impressive, right?

      It was tuned by a guy on Instagram known as @F80Paul who by some accounts tunes very well and by other does not tune safely:

      Ok so it was tuned by F80Paul. This is the exact reason why a log of this tune was requested in that world record thread.

      Paul's tunes are NOT safe and this is an example.

      I clearly remember the op telling me 'Don't blow your motor up trying to catch up to me' when we were trying to look out after him.

      Any who, I feel bad but this motor is toast.
      There was a failure shortly after the 'record' run. The owner states the turbo failed and he was up front and honest with BimmerBoost in saying so. Some established tuners on the platform feel differently about this failure though:

      That car blew up less than a month later.

      (not one to gloat in another's misfortune, but straight E85 on the factory fuel system on these S55 motors is "just a matter of time", not "if" but "when" type scenario)

      You have two problems on these cars...

      Straight E85 is great for it's increased knock threshold, but it's still very prone to pre-ignition.

      Also, any mishap with regards to tuning our of fuel pressure quickly leads to a catastrophic lean scenario.

      People made all kinds of excuses in favor of the tuner, saying ti was a hardware fault, but I'm sure you can read between the lines. A hardware failure will happen when software pushes things to the ragged edge.
      In order to top the previous record of a 10.838 elapsed time and a trap speed of 132.41 obviously the tuner pushed things on ethanol.

      It's no secret you can max out the factory S55 turbochargers without E85. An unnamed tuner:

      The other side of that would be that in order to make MORE power on E85 that what other tuners are already making on 91 and 93 Octane, they are spinning these turbos far outside of their optimal efficiency range.

      Our Stage ONE / Stage TWO cars are knocking on the doors of 10.XX quarter miles with stock turbos and they are very near maxed out.

      E85 (if it's going to be a viable fuel option long term) should lend itself well to upgraded turbo cars, but hasn't proven to be any benefit on stock turbos unless you're OK on the ragged edge, which we're likely to see more consequences with.
      That's right. You have to push to the ragged edge to eek out some performance and reliability comes at the expense of that. The question then is, who pays the bill when things go wrong? If you're going with some random social media tuner who doesn't even have a storefront and isn't a real business you're screwed. BMW will hammer you with the bill and the tuner will tell you tough luck.

      Bragging rights for a tuner saying they hold a platform record as evidence of their 'tuning superiority' often come with blown turbos, motors, etc., people on forums never see.

      With various remote tuning software and not just the PTF Bootmod3 software in this particular instance comes an increased number of people who are not tuners yet they are sending tuning files out and flashing ecu's. The N54 world is riddled with blown motors from social media tuners experimenting on other people's cars and learning at their expense.

      There is a big difference between established tuners with software engineers and strict testing procedures and some random guy bumping timing on E85 to try to get another mile per hour. The latter may be faster, but not for long.

      Be careful who you let handle your car.






      This article was originally published in forum thread: Careful pushing your BMW F80 M3 or F82 M4 motor with PTF Bootmod3 E85 tuning - S55 turbo/engine issues started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 33 Comments
      1. F80Paul's Avatar
        F80Paul -
        This post is inaccurate and not the full story. I will have Alex the owner chime in and set the record straight. His car was running another tuner’s e85 tune for months before having me tune the car. He had an injector failure which resulted in the turbo failure. It was repaired and he has since been running the tune hard for months and even repeated his 10.7 at the track again months later. Plenty of people running this tune with no issues and it is in no way “ragged edge”.

        -Paul
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by F80Paul Click here to enlarge
        This post is inaccurate and not the full story. I will have Alex the owner chime in and set the record straight.
        Actually, I spoke with him before writing anything. Very nice guy but it seems his position differs from some big name and established tuners on what happened to the motor.

        He's more than welcome to chime in.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by F80Paul Click here to enlarge
        His car was running another tuner’s e85 tune for months before having me tune the car.
        I hope this isn't shifting blame but nobody is trying to finger point here or single you out. It's a general post regarding being aware of the potential dangers of pushing your car to set a record as well as who tunes it.

        Additionally, as to the dangers of pushing hard on E85 as there is another car (not tuned by you) that had engine issues using PTF BM3 for an E85 remote tune. I think that car was tuned by carrythelabelguy or whatever he calls himself.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by F80Paul Click here to enlarge
        Plenty of people running this tune with no issues and it is in no way “ragged edge”.
        Respectfully, I haven't seen this time replicated by plenty of people. Perhaps I just haven't seen the slips? If you have evidence of people running this tune with this performance feel free to post it.

        To exceed what others have hit on the strip though, yes, it will be pushing the turbos and reliability to the ragged edge.
      1. F80Paul's Avatar
        F80Paul -
        Further, to say that this tune on stock turbos is “ragged edge” is just laughable. I have s55 customers running 700whp on full e85 with PI, generating far greater cylinder pressures than this stock turbo tune will ever generate.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by F80Paul Click here to enlarge
        Further, to say that this tune on stock turbos is “ragged edge” is just laughable. I have s55 customers running 700whp on full e85 with PI, generating far greater cylinder pressures than this stock turbo tune will ever generate.
        Cool. Would you post their slips please?

        This record was not with PI, correct?
      1. F80Paul's Avatar
        F80Paul -
        Correct, Alex’s tune is on stock fuel system. 24psi peak in the midrange, with taper down to around 22 at 6k, down to 20-21 at the shift point of 6500. More boost than that and the stock turbos start losing efficiency pretty quickly. The power is made with ignition timing (about 16deg at 6k+, valve timing tricks, and relatively lean AFR up top and increased HPFP pressures vs stock. That’s how it’s done in a nutshell.

        On Alex’s most recent outing to the track he repeated his 10.7 and his friend Mohamed was also there with his M3 running the same exact tune. Mohamed’s best was 11.0 at 131 I believe, showing that there are inherent differences between cars running the same tune. I’ll try to get some more time slips for you to see.

        i have another customer trying to beat this record that is also running a small meth kit in addition to E85 on stock turbos. No more ignition timing but I’m able to push boost another psi or two without running DI out of fuel. He has measured 10.9 on the street with a performance box and will be going to the track in April.

        Paul
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by F80Paul Click here to enlarge
        Correct, Alex’s tune is on stock fuel system.
        Then what relevance does stating you have S55 customers over 700 whp with PI have to this run?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by F80Paul Click here to enlarge
        On Alex’s most recent outing to the track he repeated his 10.7 and his friend Mohamed was also there with his M3 running the same exact tune. Mohamed’s best was 11.0 at 131 I believe, showing that there are inherent differences between cars running the same tune. I’ll try to get some more time slips for you to see.
        Of course. Cars vary, tracks vary, weather varies, ethanol content varies, etc.

        My question was more to you stating this is not ragged edge or close to it yet nobody is setting new records if that is the case which should easily be possible if not pushing things hard.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by F80Paul Click here to enlarge
        i have another customer trying to beat this record that is also running a small meth kit in addition to E85 on stock turbos. No more ignition timing but I’m able to push boost another psi or two without running DI out of fuel. He has measured 10.9 on the street with a performance box and will be going to the track in April.
        I look forward to seeing what he runs and I wish him luck in beating the record.
      1. F80Paul's Avatar
        F80Paul -
        The relevance is that what I’m saying is the stock fuel system is the bottleneck that keeps us from pushing to the “ragged edge”. We push these motors much harder on aftermarket turbos and added fueling. I’m just saying that these stock turbo/stock fuel system tunes may perform well but they are not anything crazy.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by F80Paul Click here to enlarge
        The relevance is that what I’m saying is the stock fuel system is the bottleneck that keeps us from pushing to the “ragged edge”
        By definition that means you are on the ragged edge of the stock fuel system with E85, right?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by F80Paul Click here to enlarge
        We push these motors much harder on aftermarket turbos and added fueling.
        No kidding as that is where you will see real dividends with ethanol whereas on the stock turbos you can already max the turbos without it.
      1. F80Paul's Avatar
        F80Paul -
        Nah, I can push the turbos harder on lesser blends than e85. The fuel system runs out of steam first. The real advantage with 75-85%eth is the knock resistance up top and being able to take advantage of that within the flow capacity of the stock fuel system. I’m not running any more boost here than I do on a 93+meth tune.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by F80Paul Click here to enlarge
        Nah, I can push the turbos harder on lesser blends than e85. The fuel system runs out of steam first. The real advantage with 75-85%eth is the knock resistance up top and being able to take advantage of that within the flow capacity of the stock fuel system. I’m not running any more boost here than I do on a 93+meth tune.
        How you tune the stock turbos on the stock fuel system is your business of course.
      1. lulz_m3's Avatar
        lulz_m3 -
        If i was Dzenno i would be a little upset at the misleading title... it reads as if BootMod3 is somehow to blame for a tuner providing a $#@!ty calibration. If you get protuned you dont blame the cobb accessport. You blame the guy who calibrated the file the accessport uploaded...
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
        If i was Dzenno i would be a little upset at the misleading title... it reads as if BootMod3 is somehow to blame
        I don't care if he is as there should be better vetting regarding who can tune IMO and people should be aware of potential consequences. BM3 plays a role, does it not?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
        If you get protuned you dont blame the cobb accessport.
        Doesn't Cobb force tuners to take a class?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        The owner contacted me and wanted me to add the following.

        It is the owner's belief that the previous tune by carythelabelguy that he ran for months that was at fault for any failure. Logs apparently show the tune was dangerous.

        I would just like to say these logs haven't been posted albeir they would sure clear up a lot of this if they were.
      1. RobNyc's Avatar
        RobNyc -
        SALTY AF sticker !
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by RobNyc Click here to enlarge
        SALTY AF sticker !
        A little but it's just so f'ing irresponsible. It's not my motor or turbos or whatever but it could be the next guys.

        Somebody has to has to say something.
      1. RobNyc's Avatar
        RobNyc -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        A little but it's just so f'ing irresponsible. It's not my motor or turbos or whatever but it could be the next guys.

        Somebody has to has to say something.
        Why dont you do the same with all the *ACTUAL BLOWN* cars in Fxx series with JB4 ?
        Would be good to show some reality to the world. But then BMS would not sponsor u right?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by RobNyc Click here to enlarge
        Why dont you do the same with all the *ACTUAL BLOWN* cars in Fxx series with JB4 ?
        Post them? The N54 section has blown motors with a JB4 and Terry always addresses it.

        There was a guy who blew a motor as I recall that had an S55 running BM3 and a JB4. That complicates the finger pointing a bit, doesn't it?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by RobNyc Click here to enlarge
        Would be good to show some reality to the world. But then BMS would not sponsor u right?
        They sponsored me before anyone. I think they're more interested in providing a product to the community and addressing criticism than acting like criticism or issues don't exist.

        I was one of the first to be critical of Terry. I still am. He is a man though. He doesn't hide problems. He solves them.
      1. lulz_m3's Avatar
        lulz_m3 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I don't care if he is as there should be better vetting regarding who can tune IMO and people should be aware of potential consequences. BM3 plays a role, does it not?
        $#@! no, the platform just provides the capabilities. Thats just downright absurd.

        Are you going to blame yourself for when someone blows up their motor using the bimmerboost app? Your perspective is all wrong on this one.
      1. Terry@BMS's Avatar
        Terry@BMS -
        Harsh thread. Click here to enlarge

        In their defense I've worked with both Paul and Cary, the two main BM3 "Etuners", via email and found both to be professional, knowledgeable, and enthusiastic. I'm sure both try to adhere to best tuning practices as much as possible.

        But my complaint with the BM3 flash only crowd at large is that they seem allergic to posting data logs which are absolutely required to evaluate the aggressive power curves they are going for and provide a context for the performance results. As more time passes and more wind up damaging parts, struggling with why the car runs one way when its cold out and another way when its hot out, and the tuners start supporting much wider customer bases, they'll come to appreciate why the JB4's features, safety systems, absolute target mapping, duty bias auto learning, WMI and PI integration, in dash gauges, ethanol integration, wireless datalogging, boost by gear, etc, etc, have been designed in the first place. Click here to enlarge
      1. Terry@BMS's Avatar
        Terry@BMS -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by RobNyc Click here to enlarge
        Why dont you do the same with all the *ACTUAL BLOWN* cars in Fxx series with JB4 ?
        Would be good to show some reality to the world. But then BMS would not sponsor u right?
        To the contrary, threads where people have major problems always interest me the most. Some of our best JB4 innovations have come about from studying specific issues customers had over the years.

        In terms of F series I know a lot of S63TUs have blown up. A couple thrown rods, a couple blown apart pistons from running too much timing (in their flash maps), even a melted valve once. Not in the loop on many S55s that have failed but I'm sure it's happened. N55s make so little power it's rare for them to fail. N20s are the real stinker of the chassis. They blow all the time over 22psi. Mostly thrown rods. Rumor has it, BMW used a Chinese supplier for those rods & pistons which contributed. I can't confirm that though.

        I know of TONS of F series cars running the JB4 where it was going to a safety map for one reason or another, so instead of beating on the car like one might do with flash only tuning, they posted/shared their logs for evaluation and then issues were clearly visible. Sure beats doing 5 logs to email to your tuner only to find out you had a major problem all along.