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    • What is the better track car? BMW F87 M2 Competition vs. Toyota GR Supra

      We already know the laptimes and what car is considered more fun to drive as MotorTrend already released this into in their 2019 Best Driver's Car competition. What we get is a 'new' video directly comparing the BMW F87 M2 Competition and the new Toyota GR Supra.


      The F87 M2 Competition is a big step up as it gets the S55 motor from the F80 M3 and F82 M4. Power is easily on the side of the M2 but it also balloons up in weight. Depending on options, it can top 36XX pounds. That is crazy for a 2-Series and essentially M4 weight.

      The B58 in the Supra is no slouch but you can only mate it to an 8-speed automatic. The Supra also obviously does not have rear seats. It is lighter by roughly 300 pounds which on the racetrack is significant along with its lower center of gravity.

      So which is quicker around Laguna Seca?


      The M2 leads most of the way but the Supra comes out on top at the very end just edging the M2. Maybe Randy Pobst went a little wide in the M2?

      Either way, it's a driver's race. Both seem quite capable although Randy Pobst chooses the M2 as the Supra is not as much and the electronics seem more intrusive.

      If the Supra offered a manual or even DCT option the choice would be tougher here.


      This article was originally published in forum thread: What is the better track car? BMW F87 M2 Competition vs. Toyota GR Supra started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 7 Comments
      1. Torgus's Avatar
        Torgus -
        I know which one looks like a sports car and which one looks like what my mom drives.

        FUGLY muffler on the BMW and it just looks...fat and tall compared to the supra.

        F the Zupra long live the rear engine corvette for the same price and 100X cooler.
      1. nbrigdan's Avatar
        nbrigdan -
        I prefer how the Supra looks but the 8-speed auto being the only option is a disappointment. They make a stick in the 440i, so why not offer one for Supra? It's already paired to the B58. I suppose it could be a packaging thing, just seems wrong that the Supra doesn't have a proper performance trans option (DCT or stick, whichever). Agree with Torgus on the looks of the M2...especially in white.
      1. nbrigdan's Avatar
        nbrigdan -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        The M2 leads most of the way but the Supra comes out on top at the very end just edging the M2. Maybe Randy Pobst went a little wide in the M2?
        They do multiple laps for this very reason, and then the best one is posted up. I'm sure even being a top professional there are still small errors in every lap.
      1. onurleft's Avatar
        onurleft -
        One of the biggest flaws to the C8 vette is the DCT trans. Each unit costs the manufacturer 10k - and not only that forced GM to use expensive parts in the back of the car to balance out all the additional weight. Had most of the engineering team had there way and switched it to the auto (which wasn't ready when they chose to develop the DCT), the car would've been lighter and significantly cheaper. They are also just as fast and smoother - on paper with how they do converters now, there's no reason to use DCT other than bragging rights.


        The M2 is the better car if you want to row your own gears, hands down. Nothing is better then that when you want it. It's also the better engine if you want reliability (cooling) for long periods of time on the track

        Ignoring that - just look at where the weight is on the two in the picture. It's like comparing Mustang to Corvette. Obviously one is lighter, with more of the weight down lower. That to me makes it significantly better for the driver
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by onurleft Click here to enlarge
        One of the biggest flaws to the C8 vette is the DCT trans. Each unit costs the manufacturer 10k - and not only that forced GM to use expensive parts in the back of the car to balance out all the additional weight.
        Completely wrong.

        First of all, they finally got with the times. It only took them until 2020.

        Secondly, it's a transaxle design. It is where the weight is that counts and also it doesn't weigh any more than the automatic.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by onurleft Click here to enlarge
        Had most of the engineering team had there way and switched it to the auto (which wasn't ready when they chose to develop the DCT), the car would've been lighter and significantly cheaper.
        Cheaper, yes. Lighter, no.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by onurleft Click here to enlarge
        hey are also just as fast and smoother - on paper with how they do converters now, there's no reason to use DCT other than bragging rights.
        They're closer than ever but after driving both it isn't the same experience. The GM automatic is garbage in my opinion compared to the PDK. No matter what you do it won't match the interaction or shift speed. The auto felt sloppy, the PDK is precise.

        Auto would make the C8 better? Please.
      1. onurleft's Avatar
        onurleft -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Completely wrong.

        First of all, they finally got with the times. It only took them until 2020.

        Secondly, it's a transaxle design. It is where the weight is that counts and also it doesn't weigh any more than the automatic.



        Cheaper, yes. Lighter, no.



        They're closer than ever but after driving both it isn't the same experience. The GM automatic is garbage in my opinion compared to the PDK. No matter what you do it won't match the interaction or shift speed. The auto felt sloppy, the PDK is precise.

        Auto would make the C8 better? Please.

        There you go, completely making stuff up in your head to justify what you want to be right.

        My source is an ME Project manager in charge of calibration @ GM, who drove on my Champ Racing team.

        It's 50-60lbs heavier,
        The weight sits farther back - hurting the balance of the car.
        It's not compact
        It forced expensive parts on the back of the car they did not need with the 10A to offset the weight and where the weight was
        The 10A was configured to be a trans-axle, just too late
        It's rougher
        It's slower - sorry it is. The 10A is tits.
        Each unit cost is double that of the 10A.
        It upsets the car less on fast shifts, and shifts smoother
        It's not as dynamic in its ability to switch modes.
        It's more clunky and will cause issues in driveability with more than 70% of the people who buy Corvette's who do not want that - That's the real issue
        It requires more service
        It is more likely to fail
        It has more ratios and allows for better gearing
        It allows better fuel mileage

        What we are seeing is a drastic change in technology of traditional 'auto-matics' - it's really nothing like anything in the past, except for the ZF8 which is still very good
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by onurleft Click here to enlarge
        There you go, completely making stuff up in your head to justify what you want to be right.
        Not sure how I make up driving a Porsche PDK and GM Corvette auto back to back: https://www.boostaddict.com/content....t-Corvette-Z06

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by onurleft Click here to enlarge
        My source is an ME Project manager in charge of calibration @ GM, who drove on my Champ Racing team.
        And? That makes the automatic superior somehow?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by onurleft Click here to enlarge
        It's 50-60lbs heavier,
        Based on what? They're very similar: https://www.boostaddict.com/content....tch-but-can-it

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by onurleft Click here to enlarge
        The weight sits farther back - hurting the balance of the car.
        It's not compact
        If it's a transaxle design it has to sit further back. Auto or DCT, doesn't matter.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by onurleft Click here to enlarge
        It forced expensive parts on the back of the car they did not need with the 10A to offset the weight and where the weight was
        The 10A was configured to be a trans-axle, just too late
        It's rougher
        It's slower - sorry it is. The 10A is tits.
        The C8 despite being heavier is putting up quicker times than the C7 how? Oh... the DCT.

        It's physically impossible for the 10-speed to shift faster as it isn't already in the next gear like a dual clutch is.

        Also, where is your proof? You're just talking. Where is anything that shows the shift speed for the auto is quicker because to this date I haven't seen it.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by onurleft Click here to enlarge
        Each unit cost is double that of the 10A.
        It upsets the car less on fast shifts, and shifts smoother
        Good. Enough of GM being cheap.

        Shifts smoother how? I certainly felt the PDK shifting more precisely and smoother.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by onurleft Click here to enlarge
        It's not as dynamic in its ability to switch modes.
        I have a DCT from 2008 with literally 11 modes.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by onurleft Click here to enlarge
        It's more clunky and will cause issues in driveability with more than 70% of the people who buy Corvette's who do not want that - That's the real issue
        LOL the automatic logic in the Corvette is terrible. It would do its own thing instead of doing what I wanted it to do.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by onurleft Click here to enlarge
        It requires more service
        It is more likely to fail
        It has more ratios and allows for better gearing
        It allows better fuel mileage
        Requires more service why? Many DCT's are lifetime for the car.

        More likely to fail based on what?

        More ratios do not mean a car is faster. It certainly will mean plenty of highway ratios for better MPG though. Still, there isn't some magical advantage in the number of gear ratios an automatic has. You can have 10-speed DCT's too.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by onurleft Click here to enlarge
        What we are seeing is a drastic change in technology of traditional 'auto-matics' - it's really nothing like anything in the past, except for the ZF8 which is still very good
        You provided no evidence to support anything you stated and simply said some guy at GM thinks the auto is better so it must be so.

        The GT500 and new Corvette are better cars than any Mustang or Corvette previously with an automatic. They finally got with the times and spent some money.