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    • MKV Supra B58C engine diagrams show turbo manifold cast into head - Limited turbo upgrade tuning?

      The BMW B58 motor will have some changes for the upcoming MKV Supra similar as to what we saw in the G29 Z4. BMW revised the turbo manifold design and is water-cooling the manifold. There are those worried in the tuning community about the effect of the cast turbo manifold design.


      It appears you will be able to bolt off the turbo without issue but the actual cylinder passages are in the head itself. The question then becomes, how do you design a new manifold? Well, that will likely require a new head.

      Hybrid options will likely reign and there will be those who will of course try to fit a larger aftermarket turbo to the head.

      We will see how this shakes out but expect to see more turbo manifolds cast into the cylinder head from manufacturers.












































      This article was originally published in forum thread: MKV Supra B58C engine diagrams show turbo manifold cast into head - Limited turbo upgrade tuning? started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 35 Comments
      1. DOCRace's Avatar
        DOCRace -
        Looks like the design just made it easier to do turbo upgrades. Plenty of room to build a couple runners going into a larger turbo. So no S55 for the Supra huh.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DOCRace Click here to enlarge
        Looks like the design just made it easier to do turbo upgrades. Plenty of room to build a couple runners going into a larger turbo. So no S55 for the Supra huh.
        But won't you be limited somewhat by not being able to make a traditional manifold?
      1. DOCRace's Avatar
        DOCRace -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        But won't you be limited somewhat by not being able to make a traditional manifold?
        Limited yes but just a different way of making things work. It may actually be easier because instead of making a manifold with 6 runners now you'll just have to make a 2 runner design. I can't wait to get my hands on one of these bad boys. I was really hoping it would come with an S55.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DOCRace Click here to enlarge
        Limited yes but just a different way of making things work. It may actually be easier because instead of making a manifold with 6 runners now you'll just have to make a 2 runner design. I can't wait to get my hands on one of these bad boys. I was really hoping it would come with an S55.
        Looks like you'll have to wait for the S58 but it the next gen M3 should have a very similar design.
      1. Eleventeen's Avatar
        Eleventeen -
        1) Why is the timing chain at the rear of the engine?
        2) Why does the intake manifold look like a toner cartridge?
        3) WTF is with the oil filter being so poorly located?
      1. F87Source's Avatar
        F87Source -
        The B58c is going to have tons of aftermarket support because the japanese crowd of guys are willing to spend ridiculous amounts of cash on tuning and parts. I remember back in my EVO days I would pay $800 for a tune everytime I got new parts because the ecu was so stupid and couldn't compensate for it.

        Hopefully some of this would translate to the bmw world.
      1. 93siro's Avatar
        93siro -
        Crazy talk. Maybe the solution will be to shave the manifold off and machine the head to accept new manifold.
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by F87Source Click here to enlarge
        The B58c is going to have tons of aftermarket support because the japanese crowd of guys are willing to spend ridiculous amounts of cash on tuning and parts. I remember back in my EVO days I would pay $800 for a tune everytime I got new parts because the ecu was so stupid and couldn't compensate for it.

        Hopefully some of this would translate to the bmw world.
        I think in terms of quality of aftermarket BMW world is at a good spot. We have very great products at VERY great prices compared to Pre-N54 world. Beside the Subarus, GT-R, Miata and GT86, what new JDM car has this competitive aftermarket scene? New Toyota's have been impossible to tune, only a handful of guys offer real aftermarket stuff for those cars. For those who want mild or medium tuning, we are at a good spot. Now if someone wanted a billet block or aftermarket girdle with billet main caps and all sort of hard-core stuff, yeah that helps us too.
      1. justbake's Avatar
        justbake -
        Big HP tuners may be limited but I think this makes things easier or even a non-issue for the other 99%. This is essentially a log manifold cast into the head which will make the car more responsive and allow for cheaper T4/V-Band manifolds. If you have ever driven a turbo car with a "long-runner" manifold, you will know how less responsive it makes the car
      1. justbake's Avatar
        justbake -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Eleventeen Click here to enlarge
        1) Why is the timing chain at the rear of the engine?
        2) Why does the intake manifold look like a toner cartridge?
        3) WTF is with the oil filter being so poorly located?
        1. Weight distribution
        2. W2A intercooler
        3. ???
      1. Tony@VargasTurboTech's Avatar
        Tony@VargasTurboTech -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Eleventeen Click here to enlarge
        1) Why is the timing chain at the rear of the engine?
        Looks pretty obvious BMW took notice of the hub issue and has integrated the timing sprockets into the crank for the oil pump, and timing chain at the rear of the motor. Whereas only the damper/crank pulley runs off the front of the crank. Kudos BMW, you addressed a glaring issue.
      1. Eleventeen's Avatar
        Eleventeen -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Tony@VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
        Looks pretty obvious BMW took notice of the hub issue and has integrated the timing sprockets into the crank for the oil pump, and timing chain at the rear of the motor. Whereas only the damper/crank pulley runs off the front of the crank. Kudos BMW, you addressed a glaring issue.
        Thatís very possible. It seems like a strange solution, though. I know other manufacturers do it, but itís a terrible design in regards to future maintenance. At minimum you have to remove the transmission to service the timing components, and in some applications you may even have to drop the entire engine. They could have fixed the issue by designing a traditional 1-piece crank, keyed hub, or keyed drive sprocket. I wonder if it somehow improves harmonics with the timing chain at the rear. It looks like it would at least improve hood clearance (which may also be the reason for moving the oil filter). Click here to enlarge
      1. Tony@VargasTurboTech's Avatar
        Tony@VargasTurboTech -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Eleventeen Click here to enlarge
        That’s very possible. It seems like a strange solution, though. I know other manufacturers do it, but it’s a terrible design in regards to future maintenance. At minimum you have to remove the transmission to service the timing components, and in some applications you may even have to drop the entire engine. They could have fixed the issue by designing a traditional 1-piece crank, keyed hub, or keyed drive sprocket. I wonder if it somehow improves harmonics with the timing chain at the rear. It looks like it would at least improve hood clearance (which may also be the reason for moving the oil filter). Click here to enlarge
        Service the timing components? Unless you have a timing belt, which you do not, there is no service needed. The only time you should have to touch those parts is in the event of a catastrophic failure, which hopefully this design lessens the likely hood of. I do agree, its strange its in the rear, but I would assume there was a reason for it. Is that how the B58 in the BMW models is designed?
      1. justbake's Avatar
        justbake -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Tony@VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
        Service the timing components? Unless you have a timing belt, which you do not, there is no service needed. The only time you should have to touch those parts is in the event of a catastrophic failure, which hopefully this design lessens the likely hood of. I do agree, its strange its in the rear, but I would assume there was a reason for it. Is that how the B58 in the BMW models is designed?
        All B58s have the timing components in the rear for the reason I listed above
      1. Tony@VargasTurboTech's Avatar
        Tony@VargasTurboTech -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by justbake Click here to enlarge
        All B58s have the timing components in the rear for the reason I listed above
        Oh yeah, please share your factory information stating this. Would love to see it. I would put $1000 it has nothing to do with weight distribution, and more to do with space constraints, etc. If you are going to state something as fact, show its a fact.
      1. lulz_m3's Avatar
        lulz_m3 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Tony@VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
        Oh yeah, please share your factory information stating this. Would love to see it. I would put $1000 it has nothing to do with weight distribution, and more to do with space constraints, etc. If you are going to state something as fact, show its a fact.
        Dont be so ignorant Tony. Obviously that 38 grams put the car in PERFECT 50/50 weight distribution...
      1. justbake's Avatar
        justbake -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Tony@VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
        Oh yeah, please share your factory information stating this. Would love to see it. I would put $1000 it has nothing to do with weight distribution, and more to do with space constraints, etc. If you are going to state something as fact, show its a fact.
        Okay take a deep breath, its not that deep.

        As I have read from BMW of BridgeWater (and YouWheel but that not being BMW I will let you source it on your own):
        "In addition to the intercooler systems, BMW has also weighted the B58 engine differently than it’s predecessor, N55. The weight distribution places the oil filter and it’s radiator, along with the timing chain to the back of the engine. In the N55, the alternator, AC compressor, timing chain, and engine oil assembly are positioned towards the front of the engine, which also brings the engine’s center of gravity forward."
        Source

        After reading through a B58 Technical Document, the official reason is actually for engine harmonics. I can't upload said document to this site unfortunately.

        Although I'd really like to take your $1000 because of the tone in which you responded, and since you said it has nothing to with weight distribution, I realize we are all human and make mistakes
      1. justbake's Avatar
        justbake -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
        Dont be so ignorant Tony. Obviously that 38 grams put the car in PERFECT 50/50 weight distribution...
        Don't act like BMW wouldn't completely over-engineer and over-complicate something to save 38 grams
      1. Tony@VargasTurboTech's Avatar
        Tony@VargasTurboTech -
        Oh, that makes all the difference! Well If BMW of Bridgewater (New Jersey) says it, then by all means its gospel. Write in the BMW bible guys, BMW of Bridgewater said it's for weight distribution. Lock it in...
      1. Eleventeen's Avatar
        Eleventeen -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Tony@VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
        Service the timing components? Unless you have a timing belt, which you do not, there is no service needed. The only time you should have to touch those parts is in the event of a catastrophic failure, which hopefully this design lessens the likely hood of. I do agree, its strange its in the rear, but I would assume there was a reason for it. Is that how the B58 in the BMW models is designed?
        I was thinking more along the lines of the N20 timing chain issues. However, it shouldn’t ever present a problem as long as BMW and their associated suppliers designed and built quality components for this engine.
      1. 93siro's Avatar
        93siro -
        BMW above all things seems to not be able to make a proper chain setup. N20, N63, N47 and M57 etc... Hopefully these new engines have the issue fixed. They had this rear mounted chain setup on N47 diesel engine as well, “maintenance free” they said so no reason to keep the chain front. It failed though, fingers crossed they did it right this time. The point is to them chains don’t need no maintenance so by putting it in the back it frees space above for other works. No act of weight saving was mentioned with N47, just pure maintenance/space saving matter.