Thread: S65 Stroker/Supercharged Build
03-14-2017, 01:10 AM #1
S65 Stroker/Supercharged Build
Hey guys! I'll keep this short and concise.
I'm starting a project build using the S65 platform. My first thought is to build a stroked motor and slap on a nice supercharger to make "big numbers". The problem is, there's a lot of information around about builds such as this and I'm left rather apprehensive. Admittedly, I'm not an expert engine builder, nor am I a physicist or mechanical engineer so bear this in mind when evaluating my statements. I am in no way attempting to be make any statements written in stone. I'd like to hear all of your feedback and thoughts on this matter to try and get a better idea of what to do.
Here's where we are at so far: I have the donor car ready to receive the build so at this time all we have to do is do the build. I'm still in the planning phase of this build and the only thing I have gotten is a block. Specifically, I just picked up a block from ebay for a very good price that was hydrolocked. Since I plan to build a stroked engine I figured this is no big deal at all and any machining/sleeves would render this a very usable block.
To elaborate on my goals a bit more, I really would like to get at least 700 wheel. My first plan is to go with the PPM stroker kit and a compression of 10:1. I've been speaking with Peter Helmuth from PPM in Australia and he has advised me that he can sell me the same stroker kit they use in their 4.8L race motor. It's an 86mm stroke and a 94mm bore. This sounds absolutely nutty awesome and it's something I'd like to do. He advised me that I don't really need sleeves even with running boosted. Now, this is where my apprehension comes into play. I'm not too sure about all of this. It seems to me that alusil is not exactly the strongest material in the world and sleeves like Darton makes are really great for running in boosted motors. My main concern with sleeves is excessive temperature retention, but again I'm no expert here.
Before I tackle the supercharger, I'd like to lay out my stroker build first.
Enlighten me, you boosted heathens
I've attached some pictures of the block I picked up. One of the pictures details a repair that was one on one of the cylinders. Everything looks fine here to be a candidate for a stroker build like this. Thoughts on this block? I don't see anything that jumps out and throws a big red flag
Last edited by BuiltV10; 03-14-2017 at 01:24 AM.
03-14-2017, 01:49 AM #2
Well, I don't necessarily think stroking is the best way to go.
If you look at the history of stroker engines going for big boost they haven't worked out.
Reinforcing the block is definitely recommended.
Me? If the goal is max power turbos are the choice.
That block will work if you intend to sleeve. I also have a similar block I was going to offer you but you already have one which is the first major step.
94mm is too much IMO for boost. You want to stay close to 92mm which is stock or even go less. You want more material, not less. That stroker kit isn't going to work without problems.
Not to mention I think people have tried to go past 85mm of stroke but you get issues at that level with oiling. If you are dead set to stroke, check out this article: http://www.bimmerboost.com/content.p...n-for-Stroking
Regarding not needing sleeves, he's right, look here: http://www.bimmerboost.com/content.p...kit-on-100-E85
It's when you go past that you really need to look into other options.
03-14-2017, 02:06 AM #3
Quality post as usual.
Due to the application of this motor, I'm not inclined to want to run turbos. I've come from the turbo camp (N54), and I had a blast, but I'm ready to get some serious NA gains and eventually throw on a supercharger. A different flavor of fun.
You've raised several very valid points about the bore being too much at 94. It seems the vendors are really split. Half say it's fine to run at 94 with boost and the other half say it's not.
Anyway, with the block I got, I paid a few bucks over 500 for it so I figure I got it for a steal. Worse case, I have a nice coffee table.
What about 85mm stroke and 93mm bore on a sleeved block with 9.5:1 or 10:1 pistons for running double digit boost? This stroke and bore is about 4.6L which is still quite nice. I'm looking at the Harrop kit as well. Cannot decide on the supercharger solution yet.
03-14-2017, 02:11 AM #4
You can drop the compression for more boost if you like.
Harrop is not going to get you where you want to go power wise. The torque down low will feel nice though.
If you are completely set on an SC I would just tell you to buy my SC setup as I went turbo: http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale
03-14-2017, 02:23 AM #5
03-14-2017, 02:35 AM #6
03-14-2017, 02:36 AM #7
03-14-2017, 11:57 PM #8
I ordered a ton of parts for this engine build and picked up several big items locally. Pictures to follow tomorrow. This build is happening guys! I'll make sure to document all my steps and results for prosperity. Maybe the motor fails, maybe it does not. We'll just have to see, but I'm giving the stroker/supercharged motor a go. I'm sure I'll get a lot of flame over certain aspects of this build, but oh well. Gotta live life the way you want.
I just bought the car that will be being swapped. I'll be picking her up this weekend. Reason for getting this car: weight. It's much lighter, shorter wheel base, perfect for building something with great handling. The torsional rigidity is 32,000 N.m which is far more than most cars. The reason I'm building an S65 for this car instead of an S85 is weight and size. With the S65, it will sit further back in the bay than the S54 and weigh much less until I throw on the supercharger which will probably get it to be only a few more pounds heavier, but remember it will be further back for better weight distribution.
If anyone is wondering what is going to happen to the S54 and trans, I may offer it up for sale when I get closer to pulling it. We'll have to see. I have a feeling grabbing a prepped rolling E30 and dropping in the S54 would be a fun treat.
Last edited by BuiltV10; 03-15-2017 at 12:09 AM.
03-15-2017, 01:23 AM #9
03-15-2017, 01:50 AM #10
I'm in talks with Brian from VAC right now about this build. Hopefully we'll come to a good agreement and I can drive over there and drop off my block and get the work started.
I'm always looking for any suggestions or advice so keep on shelling it out! I'm trying to source out parts for the motor still so if you have an inventory of items send them over for me to take a peek out to see if I need anything. I really need a PS pump right now.
I'm also digging into the chassis of the car and looking to do full suspension, but that may not be included in this thread due to it's irrelevancy. If everyone would like to know the plan there I can throw it in.
Boosters ignited, lift off in only a mere moment.
I'm looking for an S85 short block or long block for another project as well. Let me know if you know any for a good price
03-15-2017, 02:02 AM #11
Too bad you didn't get here earlier you could have gotten my exhaust and custom headers. Might have been a tight fit though not sure.
03-15-2017, 02:08 AM #12
I actually have a spare S65 block, but it suffered from a spun main bearing. I can ship it if the price is right. I'll be picking it up from the shop next week and I can shoot you some pics.
As for the supercharger kit, I'm thinking on it still. It's really tempting especially knowing the lengths it performed to. As for headers, I'm doing custom due to fitment issues I have predicted. I picked up some OEM ones for $150 total for both banks and I'll be giving them a shot to see.
I'm totally lost on how to mount the motor. I'm hoping there's an obscure mount that I could use, but I have a feeling BMW does not produce a mount. I know that the Nxx motors (N52, N55, etc) can mount in E36 and E46 using the Z4 engine mounts, but we'll have to see for this S65. I'll probably need something custom. I won't worry about it until the motor is assembled and ready to go in.
03-15-2017, 02:17 AM #13
03-15-2017, 04:11 AM #14
$#@!in hell, gone a few days and things like this start popping up??
Very well thought out plan so far. Keep the updates coming2010 N54 - DocRace - Motiv - CKI - TCKR - Volk - ER - CSF - Vorsteiner
03-15-2017, 05:52 PM #15
I picked up an intake manifold (I'll be running for a month or two on the stroker before I SC), headers, and tons of other goodies as you can see pictured. I have parts coming in for the rest of the week and even next week. The block will be heading out next week with any luck and we'll get this show on the road.
I almost have all the random tid-bits here and there to have a running engine when I throw the top end on my built bottom end. I'll eventually build the top end with cams and better springs, but not for now. Just bottom end.
A bit of a side note: I don't plan on running stock headers for ever, I mainly got them because they were a good deal and should help me fit the motor in the car. I have no idea if stock headers will fit, but we'll see. I'll report all my findings in depth and with measurements so anyone else can follow in my foot steps.
I'll have the DCT trans, complete heads, and other parts next week. I'll be sure to include some pictures. Getting the DCT to work in this car is going to be a nightmare. I'm thinking I'll just throw in all the E9x electronics and gauges and get it to "fit" nicely with an OEM look.
Side Note: Mods/Admins on ZPOST are a bunch of tally-waggers. They are censoring all my posts referencing BimmerBoost. It's pathetic, really. If anyone wants to follow the thread over on ZPOST it's here. I'll be keeping the threads mostly synced, but I'll focus this one more on the motor and performance of the drivetrain and that thread more on the build of the chassis.
Last edited by BuiltV10; 03-15-2017 at 06:04 PM.
03-15-2017, 11:19 PM #16
03-16-2017, 07:16 PM #17
Okay so if any of you are wondering why DCT... Because it competes better and any prudent individual would conclude such. Yes, 6 speed is more fun, but I'm building a car for competition, not fun. Anyway, it will be $#@!ing cool to see a running DCT in a Z4MC that is OEM feeling/looking and clean. It could be a helpful DIY for anyone attempting to swap DCT into any 6 speed car and getting it to go in cleanly.
Here is a pic of the complete head assembly I'll be picking up. I got everything for a reasonable deal so this will really expedite the build. Brian from VAC just got back to me today with a quote on the bottom end. It's expensive but VAC is a top shelf shop with top shelf wrench masters. I'll update more about the engine build as we get closer to sending the bottom off. I'll update this thread again Monday with the project car pics and more part pictures. I plan to assembly everything on a stand to make sure I have everything I'll need. It helps to visualize it all first.
As a side note, you guys can expect things to keep moving at a good pace. The funds for this project have already been allocated so there won't be any hold ups due to money. If there's a hold up it's going to be with shipping or manufacturing of something.
And just for you Sticky, here is a picture of the other block I mentioned (I'll get more of them and more detail on Monday):
03-16-2017, 09:19 PM #18
03-16-2017, 09:20 PM #19
This seems to be the easiest and cleanest idea. Open to more suggestions too
03-16-2017, 09:22 PM #20
03-16-2017, 09:29 PM #21
Everyone on ZPost is telling me I should do 6 speed, but DCT is far better for laying down a good time at the track. Plus no one does DCT swaps, only 6 speed. I want something different. I'll be using the paddles from a late model Z4 (Think 06 and 07) with the automatic paddle shifters. The Z4M steering wheel can accept those paddle assemblies and I'll use the housings to mount to the steering wheel and swap in the E9X DCT mechanism and paddles for a clean, no one can tell it's not OEM, look.
VAC wants to take 8 weeks basically to finish the motor so I'll whip the Z stock until I get the motor. Anyone want an S54?
03-16-2017, 09:48 PM #22
03-16-2017, 09:52 PM #23
03-16-2017, 10:09 PM #24
This is a 130 page thread on the topic: http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...nd-Viton-seals
I'll spare you the trouble. SSP didn't work and hung me out to dry. They used my gearbox for development and then told me to go F myself. Class guy that Kris Gagnon.
Dodson stepped in and delivered a product that could handle the torque.
I'd stay FAR away from SSP.
03-16-2017, 10:13 PM #25
Wow, I'll have to go through it all. I like SSP's price but Dodson seems to have a more complete kit. I'll take your warning on SSP. I think the stock DCT is fine for now but I plan on launching like 50 times a day everyday