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    5862 vs. 6465 Dyno Comparison

    Hey guys,

    Was able to hit up the dyno this AM to see how the 6465 is doing. Overall I wound up a bit disappointed with it.

    I kept the fuel, weather, car, etc, similar to to the previous 5862 dyno with the only change being the turbo and boost profile. That means race gas, single CM10 nozzle, cutout open. Same ST back end flash.

    With the 5862 maxed out running 12psi WG springs it was able to make 28psi tapering to around 25psi at redline. With the 6465 maxed out running 15psi WG springs I was only able to make 29psi tapering to around 27psi at redline. I was expecting to at least be able to hold 30psi to redline.

    I did some basic diagnostics on the dyno to verify the MAC solenoid was operating properly, tested with the filter off to eliminate a possible restriction (more on that later), tried higher and lower advance curves, tried different AFR profiles, etc, and basically none of it improved the situation. Granted these runs are being done in 4th gear on an automatic which is fairly short as you can see in the log. Still it should be able to hold more boost. I'll continue working on it. Now I'm starting to wonder if the 5862 with a 15 or 17psi spring would produce the same power with less lag.

    During one of the filter off runs the turbo somehow managed to suck in the WG wiring and ate around 5" of it. lol. I didn't see any physical damage and power was not effected on subsequent runs. So it's probably all chopped in the intercooler. Will have to go hunting around for it. Thank god this is an eBay motor. Click here to enlarge

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    Terry,

    What size A/R on both, that should tell us a lot, A/R is going to basically limit the boost, and become the choke point one the bigger turbo. You can prob pick up some top end by just going bigger A/R on the 58 or 65. I does seem the 65 is running out of breath much too soon for its size.

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    Terry, why do you think Fastgti's car is making more power? Just different manifold design and less drivetrain loss since he is MT? Either way looks like spool isn't affected much and at least you are making a little more power.

    Never mind. I'm an idiot...he can rev out to 7200...

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    He runs a different manifold, and is an MT, so either may have an effect. Ando is going to put this same turbo his car with the VM kit, which should give another datapoint.

    I think I'm going to swap back to the 5862 w/ 17psi springs to see if those help vs. the 12psi springs in there previously.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 08-11-2014 at 04:47 PM.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Terry,

    What size A/R on both, that should tell us a lot, A/R is going to basically limit the boost, and become the choke point one the bigger turbo. You can prob pick up some top end by just going bigger A/R on the 58 or 65. I does seem the 65 is running out of breath much too soon for its size.
    Both are .84.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Both are .84.
    These are TS right? Thats a pretty small TS housing, my guess is the 6465 isn't picking up much more power because the housing just cant flow anymore. Swap it over to a bigger AR and you should see a healthy jump in top end power.

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    Right, T4 divided flange. On the AR it's tempting although I'm worried about spool since it's an automatic. The 6465 .84 as is is borderline slower than I'd like.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Right, T4 divided flange. On the AR it's tempting although I'm worried about spool since it's an automatic. The 6465 .84 as is is borderline slower than I'd like.
    Its always that trade off, I would go with a bigger A/R on the 58, you will prob end up spooling about the same as the 6465 but have more room for top end gains. Its tough to say, but I agree with you, I would have expected more gains from the bigger turbo, but that housing is prob maxed. Same as we went with a much bigger turbine in the Stock frames, but only picked up minimal gains as the housing just choked it down.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Its always that trade off, I would go with a bigger A/R on the 58, you will prob end up spooling about the same as the 6465 but have more room for top end gains. Its tough to say, but I agree with you, I would have expected more gains from the bigger turbo, but that housing is prob maxed. Same as we went with a much bigger turbine in the Stock frames, but only picked up minimal gains as the housing just choked it down.
    I don't think he'd make anymore power on that 58 than he already has. 600whp is a lot from that little turbo. I'm going to just guess it's the revs. @Terry@BMS line up my dyno with yours on the 6465 see if we're hitting 640whp at the same rpm.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fastgti69 Click here to enlarge
    I don't think he'd make anymore power on that 58 than he already has. 600whp is a lot from that little turbo. I'm going to just guess it's the revs. @Terry@BMS line up my dyno with yours on the 6465 see if we're hitting 640whp at the same rpm.
    Looks like you're ahead the whole way. You can really see the gearing difference in the second chart which may explain some of the variance.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fastgti69 Click here to enlarge
    I don't think he'd make anymore power on that 58 than he already has. 600whp is a lot from that little turbo. I'm going to just guess it's the revs. @Terry@BMS line up my dyno with yours on the 6465 see if we're hitting 640whp at the same rpm.
    You are seriously underestimating the difference AR ratio makes in top power. The 58 is prob close to maxed, but the 6465 is not, so if he cannot hold boost up top, it is because the housing is running out of flow, if his boost is already tapering, adding more revs is not going to suddenly allow the turbo to flow more and boost will pick back up. If everything in the wastegate system is working properly and he is auto tapering, it because back pressure is building and the turbo cannot flow anymore. The only way to solve this is to free up some more flow, he removed any restriction on the intake side, so the only thing left is the turbine side, either go bigger on the turbo or bump up the AR. Since we know the turbo is rated for a higher ceiling then he is seeing, well we have just found the issue via the process of elimination. .84 on a TS housing is not very big

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Looks like you're ahead the whole way. You can really see the gearing difference in the second chart which may explain some of the variance.
    I think its reasonable to believe the difference is in the two manifold designs, as that's the only thing different now (outside of AT/MT).
    Change is constant

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    You are seriously underestimating the difference AR ratio makes in top power. The 58 is prob close to maxed, but the 6465 is not, so if he cannot hold boost up top, it is because the housing is running out of flow, if his boost is already tapering, adding more revs is not going to suddenly allow the turbo to flow more and boost will pick back up. If everything in the wastegate system is working properly and he is auto tapering, it because back pressure is building and the turbo cannot flow anymore. The only way to solve this is to free up some more flow, he removed any restriction on the intake side, so the only thing left is the turbine side, either go bigger on the turbo or bump up the AR. Since we know the turbo is rated for a higher ceiling then he is seeing, well we have just found the issue via the process of elimination. .84 on a TS housing is not very big
    I agree Something closer to a 1.01 should still spool well in divided but if you don't want any more delay. Go to a 3076R or similar in divided housing.
    Last edited by Ingeniator; 08-11-2014 at 06:01 PM. Reason: part number wrong

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by The Ghost Click here to enlarge
    I think its reasonable to believe the difference is in the two manifold designs, as that's the only thing different now (outside of AT/MT).
    I dropped off my car today at VM for the same top mount kit as @fastgti69 My car is auto also so next week we will know if it's the manifold or something else.

    Also doing level 10 valve body upgradeClick here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by AndoBMS Click here to enlarge
    I dropped off my car today at VM for the same top mount kit as @fastgti69 My car is auto also so next week we will know if it's the manifold or something else.

    Also doing level 10 valve body upgradeClick here to enlarge
    Any reason for the switch other than wanting more power? Just curious as I am about to bolt on the kit you are currently running.
    07 335i FFTEC 600 Click here to enlarge

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    Install one of those rocket anti-lags lol.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by wtfmarine Click here to enlarge
    Any reason for the switch other than wanting more power? Just curious as I am about to bolt on the kit you are currently running.
    Reason
    1) Want more power.
    2) Want top mount.
    3) Good to for development

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by AndoBMS Click here to enlarge
    Reason
    1) Want more power.
    2) Want top mount.
    3) Good to for development
    Those are good reasons Click here to enlarge
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    Love that data is being collected, shared, and all are helping.. Best of luck finding that perfect setup T
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    Am I the only one who is wondering how the 5862 would do on a manual tranny car? To me that quick boost and ~600whp would be a ton of fun for a daily driver car.
    Click here to enlarge
    FBO's. Spec S2+. E85.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rdeterman Click here to enlarge
    Am I the only one who is wondering how the 5862 would do on a manual tranny car? To me that quick boost and ~600whp would be a ton of fun for a daily driver car.
    i would do it, but there arent enough examples out there with data showing that bigger is not ness better in all cases .. Terrys car did A VBOX VERIFIED 5.99 no one has came anywhere near that time and he has WAY less power ...

    I cant wait for VTTs kit to show up for comparison too but VMs top mount looks promising for sure, Ts top mount setup is boogying but still not a 1/4 mile monster, but most of the super high dyno cars do not have any data and all fade away it seems ... why is this??????????????????????

    Yet the same thing keeps getting done over and over.. Terry made the right choice as a starting point with his choice, and the 5.99 is by far the fastest to date. With his "small turbo".

    One thing is certain, no 6466 bottom mount for me Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    You are seriously underestimating the difference AR ratio makes in top power. The 58 is prob close to maxed, but the 6465 is not, so if he cannot hold boost up top, it is because the housing is running out of flow, if his boost is already tapering, adding more revs is not going to suddenly allow the turbo to flow more and boost will pick back up. If everything in the wastegate system is working properly and he is auto tapering, it because back pressure is building and the turbo cannot flow anymore. The only way to solve this is to free up some more flow, he removed any restriction on the intake side, so the only thing left is the turbine side, either go bigger on the turbo or bump up the AR. Since we know the turbo is rated for a higher ceiling then he is seeing, well we have just found the issue via the process of elimination. .84 on a TS housing is not very big
    I understand what AR does with top end power, I am not at all disagreeing with you lol. He really doesn't have much back pressure, he had his cut out open and has 3" going all the way through. I have mine going through secondary cats, resonator and mufflers and still made more power on less boost. That 5862 is most likely maxed out, and the AR for the 6465 should probably be bigger when going for more power. We will find out on my kit soon as well, I will possibly dyno again this week if time permits. I have a lot of cars I need to attend to in the shop. Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fastgti69 Click here to enlarge
    I understand what AR does with top end power, I am not at all disagreeing with you lol. He really doesn't have much back pressure, he had his cut out open and has 3" going all the way through. I have mine going through secondary cats, resonator and mufflers and still made more power on less boost. That 5862 is most likely maxed out, and the AR for the 6465 should probably be bigger when going for more power. We will find out on my kit soon as well, I will possibly dyno again this week if time permits. I have a lot of cars I need to attend to in the shop. Click here to enlarge
    It's not after turbo back pressure tony is talking about. He is referring to manifold back pressure. The turbo is the restriction a larger housing ratio would allow for more flow. A .82 on a divided housing actually flows less then an .82 undivded.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fastgti69 Click here to enlarge
    I understand what AR does with top end power, I am not at all disagreeing with you lol. He really doesn't have much back pressure, he had his cut out open and has 3" going all the way through. I have mine going through secondary cats, resonator and mufflers and still made more power on less boost. That 5862 is most likely maxed out, and the AR for the 6465 should probably be bigger when going for more power. We will find out on my kit soon as well, I will possibly dyno again this week if time permits. I have a lot of cars I need to attend to in the shop. Click here to enlarge
    No offense here sir, but there is no real back pressure after the turbo. The turbo is just an inline restriction in the exhaust stream from exhaust valve back. Think of it like a hose, put a 1/2 restrictor in the hose, and no matter how much pressure you put before the restrictor you are going to get 1/2" worth of water out of it, not take a fire hose and hook it up tp the hose after the restrictor, what has that done to increase flow through the restrictor, nothing, that's your cut out. If you want more flow, make the restrictor bigger, period. Now this is assuming everything is working properly on the wastegate, and you have no boost leaks, etc. That you believe opening a cut out after the turbo will have anything to do with back pressure through the turbine housing is a little surprising as you are giving a lot of advice on turbochargers, and that's a pretty basic turbo principle. Like I said please do not take offense to that, just a little surprising.

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    I went 1.0 a/r on my ts for this purpose. Usually you go bigger on the a/r on divided setups from what my research showed. We'll see how my 6266 works out in a few days.

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