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Thread: Cold start roughness without codes or audible misfire, HELP!

              
  1. #1
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    Cold start roughness without codes or audible misfire, HELP!

    2008 335xi, OFT STG1, DCI only (but behaves exactly the same all stock), 95k miles

    Runs rough, seat shakes slightly up/down, starts very easily and under 1 crank, stutters on gear change at low throttle input until warm. When warm runs like brand new. Maintenance and diagnostic data below:

    -Plugs and 1 coil replaced 4k ago
    -Walnut blasted 1k ago, no change in cold start behavior
    -Fuel pressure in rail remains proper overnight ~75psi (and 5000hpa lpfp/150000-120000hpa hpfp hpa during condition)
    -INPA cylinder roughness shows all cylinders in the green when this occurs
    -LTFT fuel trims are -3.3% B1, +5.5% B2... this is concerning, WOT fuel trims are also 8% apart... walnut blasting didn't change this a bit
    -Checked injector calibration since 4 were replaced under recall with HPFP in 2011, they are coded correctly
    -Disconnected battery and reset all adaptions, no change

    Car was CPO until recently but I was continually told "it's fine because there's no faults" so now it's my problem.

    I don't want to shotgun the repair with vanos solenoids, injectors, coils etc I want to find the problem and resolve it, thanks guys!

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    Few questions:

    - What fuel are you running?

    - Do you have any logs of the cold starts?

    - How long does the roughness last? Only at idle or at all RPMs?

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    E10 93 octane fuel, I have not logged it since I can't find anything wrong but the idle fuel trims, roughness lasts 1-2mins and only noticeable at idle rpm... the stutter on gear change at low throttle input during the first few minutes of operation is new.

    Also get this "shake" for 1-2 seconds on a warm start if it sits 10-15mins but clears up immediately, not continual giving me a massage in my seat like cold start... rpm is not fluctuating visibly when its occurring.

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    I also verified the front O2 sensor locations and wiring, they are correct (figured I might as well, dealer had replaced rear turbo last year)

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    You say walnut blast 1K miles ago.
    Are you sure all intake gaskets are installed correctly and the engine is not getting false air leaning out your cold starts?
    Pressure test the intake side?
    There are two theories to arguing with women. Neither one works

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
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    You say walnut blast 1K miles ago.
    Are you sure all intake gaskets are installed correctly and the engine is not getting false air leaning out your cold starts?
    Pressure test the intake side?
    I have not pressure tested the intake side, but fuel trims did not change before/after the walnut blasting, I am not having any boost issues so I don't believe there is an intake leak. I expected the blasting to bring the trims closer together, it did not... did get a nice power bump up top though *shrug*

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    Ah, I could not tell from your post when your problems started.
    So you already had problems before the walnut blasting?
    Any indication when it started misbehaving?
    Was anything done to the car just prior to that?
    There are two theories to arguing with women. Neither one works

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    Yes, the problem prompted me to get the walnut blasting done... it just started happening one day and I figured before I go complain for CPO coverage i'll make sure they don't call me and say the intake ports were all gunked up. Instead they commented how great it ran and there were no problems LOL

    No changes have been made to the car, it's a DD I just drive it and plan to keep it mostly stock

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    @ls3c6

    I have been dealing with the almost EXACT symptoms for the last year or so. INPA showed all cylinders were fine, and logs don't show anything obvious.

    I have also noticed that the idle "roughness" can SOMETIMES carry over to roughness while cruising. You can kinda feel the car push back/minor misfire while cruising under light load. But no check engine light/no codes.

    I too have not wanted to shotgun all plugs, coils, and vanos....
    2007 Jet Black E90 335xi "The Mistress" / PTF-Cobb / Alpina Flash / Muffler Delete / 4in Black DiMisa Tips / DCI / 19x8.5 Satin Black Squared Enkei Raijins / Hankook V12s / 20mm Rear Spacers /Blizzak WS-80s on stock wheels "winter mode" / 2 10" Rockford Fosgate's Added to Logic7 (15 total speakers!)
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by I6+TT=FTW Click here to enlarge
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    ls3c6

    I have been dealing with the almost EXACT symptoms for the last year or so. INPA showed all cylinders were fine, and logs don't show anything obvious.

    I have also noticed that the idle "roughness" can SOMETIMES carry over to roughness while cruising. You can kinda feel the car push back/minor misfire while cruising under light load. But no check engine light/no codes.

    I too have not wanted to shotgun all plugs, coils, and vanos....
    this is disappointing Click here to enlarge ... how are your idle LTFTs? In my car at least the coils and vanos have never been replaced... I don't want to just start tossing parts at it though, I may purchase route66 warranty I know a local shop that'll go to bat on it but it looks like an uphill battle

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    Swapping out only 4 injectors is most likely your problem, not that there is wrong with swapping only 4, but these injectors are notorious for causing little issues. We had a rough running issue very similar to that, swamped out a few of the injectors based off reading the plugs, helped a little. Finally bit the bullet and replaced all 6, car has never run better. Do yourself a favor and replace the last 2 injectors.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Swapping out only 4 injectors is most likely your problem, not that there is wrong with swapping only 4, but these injectors are notorious for causing little issues. We had a rough running issue very similar to that, swamped out a few of the injectors based off reading the plugs, helped a little. Finally bit the bullet and replaced all 6, car has never run better. Do yourself a favor and replace the last 2 injectors.
    4 were replaced due to recall and what the dealer scanned on the sides of the bodies of the injectors, at this point I'd need to replace all 6 myself... which I can do, the SMP FJ1050 on ebay for $99ea is a factory part... but i'll be quite bummed if I spend $650 on new jects and the problem doesn't change

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ls3c6 Click here to enlarge
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    4 were replaced due to recall and what the dealer scanned on the sides of the bodies of the injectors, at this point I'd need to replace all 6 myself... which I can do, the SMP FJ1050 on ebay for $99ea is a factory part... but i'll be quite bummed if I spend $650 on new jects and the problem doesn't change
    If 4 were replaced not to long ago why would you replace all 6? BMW should have done all 6 when they were in there. My suggestion was replace the 2 that were not replaced.
    Vargas Turbocharger Technologies
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
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    If 4 were replaced not to long ago why would you replace all 6? BMW should have done all 6 when they were in there. My suggestion was replace the 2 that were not replaced.
    4 were replaced in 2011 along with HPFP under recall campaign. They are not the new "index 13" injector

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    I do know that all 6 of mine were replaced in 2011 (recall), and all 6 plugs last year, along with Walnut blasting.

    I will have to log LTFT.... I can just watch those during driving with the the Cobb V3 can't I? And what range should I be looking for?
    2007 Jet Black E90 335xi "The Mistress" / PTF-Cobb / Alpina Flash / Muffler Delete / 4in Black DiMisa Tips / DCI / 19x8.5 Satin Black Squared Enkei Raijins / Hankook V12s / 20mm Rear Spacers /Blizzak WS-80s on stock wheels "winter mode" / 2 10" Rockford Fosgate's Added to Logic7 (15 total speakers!)
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    Ps. The part number you posted for the Standard injectors are NOT a factory part, the factory only uses Siemens injectors. Every experience we have had with Standard injectors over the years has been they are not OE quality. Use at your own risk, expect them to fail much faster than an OE injector.
    Vargas Turbocharger Technologies
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Ps. The part number you posted for the Standard injectors are NOT a factory part, the factory only uses Siemens injectors. Every experience we have had with Standard injectors over the years has been they are not OE quality. Use at your own risk, expect them to fail much faster than an OE injector.
    http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showpo...1&postcount=22

    check it, when you order you receive a reboxxed OE part.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by I6+TT=FTW Click here to enlarge
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    I do know that all 6 of mine were replaced in 2011 (recall), and all 6 plugs last year, along with Walnut blasting.

    I will have to log LTFT.... I can just watch those during driving with the the Cobb V3 can't I? And what range should I be looking for?
    I would expect for both banks to at least be similar

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    ls3c6,

    I had pretty much the identical symptoms as what you're describing. When I had the dealer change the spark plugs as part of my factory included maintenance, I asked to see the plugs. They were very rich, carbon fouled. Turns out 5 of 6 injectors were leaking and so all were replaced. I cannot say the injectors were 100% the cause as the plugs had just over 45K on them but after plugs and injectors, problem is gone and has not returned.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ls3c6 Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showpo...1&postcount=22

    check it, when you order you receive a reboxxed OE part.
    I hate to tell you this bud, but Standard is rebuilding the stock injectors and reselling them as they do with most of their products. So yes you are sure getting an identical injector to the OE part, well because it is. Its just a rebuilt part, not a new one. But hey we have only been dealing with injectors and injection pumps for 20+ years, don't listen to us, the guy posting over on N54tech that got a Standard injector and matched it up not realizing he was installing rebuilt injectors is the proper source. I mean we could say the turbos we sell are 100% OE as they have the OE laser scan tag on them still, etc. But the fact of the matter is, we use the OE housings and rebuild them, as every other turbo rebuilder is doing in the N54 world. Do not be fooled, Standard injectors are not Siemens injectors, Siemens injectors are Siemens injectors. You know the millions of injectors BMW replaced for all that recall work, companies like standard buy them up by the container full at core prices, rebuild them and sell the as standard injectors, they still have the factory bodies, but the internals are rebuilt.
    Vargas Turbocharger Technologies
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I hate to tell you this bud, but Standard is rebuilding the stock injectors and reselling them as they do with most of their products. So yes you are sure getting an identical injector to the OE part, well because it is. Its just a rebuilt part, not a new one. But hey we have only been dealing with injectors and injection pumps for 20+ years, don't listen to us, the guy posting over on N54tech that got a Standard injector and matched it up not realizing he was installing rebuilt injectors is the proper source. I mean we could say the turbos we sell are 100% OE as they have the OE laser scan tag on them still, etc. But the fact of the matter is, we use the OE housings and rebuild them, as every other turbo rebuilder is doing in the N54 world. Do not be fooled, Standard injectors are not Siemens injectors, Siemens injectors are Siemens injectors. You know the millions of injectors BMW replaced for all that recall work, companies like standard buy them up by the container full at core prices, rebuild them and sell the as standard injectors, they still have the factory bodies, but the internals are rebuilt.
    well if that's the case then it's a $950 gamble :/

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ls3c6 Click here to enlarge
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    well if that's the case then it's a $950 gamble :/
    This I agree with, we took the same gamble and it fixed our rough running. Something you need to decide upon
    Vargas Turbocharger Technologies
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
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    This I agree with, we took the same gamble and it fixed our rough running. Something you need to decide upon
    just wish I could verify things one way or another, I don't like that it still does it for 1-2 seconds on warm start and rail pressure is good overnight, doesn't seem injectors are "leaking"

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    Start the car and let it run a few seconds while rough. Turn off and pull the plugs. Any plug that is wet, the injector is toast.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by David335 Click here to enlarge
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    Start the car and let it run a few seconds while rough. Turn off and pull the plugs. Any plug that is wet, the injector is toast.
    This is a good test, you have to be quick, if you wait to long the gas evaporates and you cant see it
    Vargas Turbocharger Technologies
    N55 World Record: 560WTQ, 11.4 ET / 123MPH
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