04-19-2014, 11:13 PM #1
Anybody have experience with ECUFlash
My buddy has a 2001 Eclipse Spyder with a 4G64 2.4 that needs the engine rebuild. He wants to build the 2.4 and turbo it for a 250-300 WHP toy. Has anybody played with ECUFlash? From what I've read this seems pretty common on older EVO's and the Eclipse is listed as a supported model. He's hoping that ECUFlash or some flash program will be able to alter the current ECU settings to support his turbo needs.2008 135i - Cobb AP, JB4 G5 w/2Step&FSB, MS DP's, Berk street exhaust, AMS IC, VTT Inlets, UR Intake, ER CP w/Tial BOV, Spec 3+ & Steel FW, CDV delete, Quaife LSD, DSS Axles, M3 control arms, M3 rear SF bushings, M3 Trans bushings, SS brake lines. Pics
04-19-2014, 11:22 PM #2
Never head of it. Link?
05-30-2014, 02:25 PM #3
ECUflash will only flash 2GB "black box" ECUs. It will not work on 3G ECUs. 98-99 Turbo Eclipses came with black box ECUs.2011 335is DCT, moving to Italy, looking for new car friends
05-30-2014, 02:33 PM #4Supporting Vendor
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ECUFlash is the go-to tuning option for all evo's, basically. I've used it the past few years to tune various VIII's, IX's, and X's. You need a rom definition file, as well as a rom to tune off of. If you have the definition file, you can pull the rom off of your car and use that as a base. However, I don't believe that there are def's available for the 3G eclipse. Even if there were, most likely the factory ECU would not have the necessary tables to support tuning the forced induction. Your friend will have to look to a standalone ecu I would think. Or look up what others who have turboed the 3G eclipse have done engine management wise.
05-30-2014, 02:36 PM #5
After a little research, only the manual transmission GTs have XML files that would unlock the ROM. That doesn't help your buddy, but does correct my previous statement.2011 335is DCT, moving to Italy, looking for new car friends
05-30-2014, 02:41 PM #6
Below is from someone on a different forum. I take no responsibility for what is written LOL, as it did not come from me nor can I verify it's validity. I'm a 2G guy.
Aside from the equipment and approach, the two most important elements to have are PASSION and TIME. Passion should come first and If you do not enjoy tuning, then do not do it. You will end up very frustrated and maybe mess up your Eclipse.The second important element to learning how to tune is TIME. You must read a lot and test a lot. The most important place to visit and read is the Ecuflash forum on Evom. This is the hub for Ecuflash tuning. I spend hours reading posts from knowledgeable people like MalibuJack, mrfred, razolab, tephra, jcsbanks, touring bubble, etc…. Some of the stuff that I read is highly technical and sometimes I read threads three to four times to get concept to sink in. It gets very frustrated at times so you gotta make sure you understand through example and practical knowledge.
When you first start reading you will be confused. The learning curve is steep and the task seems daunting. There is simply too much to read. Some of the posts are top notch and some are pure crap. You will have to figure out which posts to believe in. Use the above mentioned posters’ names as your guide. But do NOT give up, persevere. You CAN do it. It is NOT hard to tune your own Eclipse. It is not black magic or rocket science. Some pro-tuners want you to think it is, so you will not do it on your own. I was in your shoes once. I thought that tuning was some voodoo/rocket science affair. I too trusted a pro-tuner, only to discover that the pro-tuner I trusted had serious shortcomings. So I took a vow to learn how to do this and never to go to a pro-tuner again.
If you have PASSION and TIME, then the next step is to get the best possible equipment that you can afford. So what will you need?
1. Laptop: You must have a laptop. Modern tuning is all about computers. W/O a laptop, it is very hard to tune accurately with consistent repetitive results. There are many cheap used laptops on ebay. Make sure that you get one that is powerful enough for your tuning needs. I also recommend that you get a small laptop with a small screen. Mine is bulky and has a 14.xx inch screen. I am now in the market for a very small 7 inch mobile computer.
2. Logging hardware: You will need a logging/flashing hardware cable. The one that all of us currently use is the Tactrix Cable (Tactrix). You can either get a universal cable or an Evo specific cable. The former will work on Evo and non-Evo vehicles, the latter will only work on Evos. I have one of each. One stays in my Evo and the other stays in my tuning kit.
3. Wideband O2 meter (WBO2): Do not attempt to tune your Eclipse if you do not have a WBO2 meter. Do not use the narrowband O2 sensor on the Eclipse to tune the car. The NBO2 was not intended for tuning purposes. It is used for emissions and it is only accurate under stoichometeric conditions and even then it is barely accurate. Tuning with a NBO2 was used back in the DSM days when WBO2 were very expensive and no one could afford them. Today, you can get a WBO2 meter for as little as $180.
4. Logging Software: The most widely used logging software is Evoscan (EvoScan OBDII Mitsubishi MUTII DataLogger Scantool). It uses the tactrix cable to log data from your ECU port. It also allows you to integrate data from your WBO2 with the data from your ECU port. It costs $25. It is a one time fee that entitles you to later updates of the software. It is very user friendly and easy to set-up. If you want free software, then try Mitsulogger from the aktivematrix web site.
5. Tuning Software: The tuning software is known as Ecuflash. It is for free and you can download it from Tactrix. Be aware that some recent versions of the software have bugs in them and might not work on your lap top. I am still using version 2.5 because I do not want to deal with the possible bugs in Newer versions.
So now that you have all the equipment and tools, what do you do next?
First, you must install the WBO2 properly on your Eclipse. DO NOT install the WBO2 sensor behind the Catalytic Converter. That will give you erroneous AFR readings. The best position to place the sensor is in the down pipe 24-36" after the turbo in the three o’clock position on the passenger side. Do not place the sensor in any position below three o’clock. You do not want condensation to form on the sensor and destroy the sensor.
Second, you have to go out and log data from your Eclipse. You must log, log, and log some more. Since I live in an urban area, flat freeways work great for me. Log in 3rd gear and 4th gear. Do WOT runs from 2500 rpm all the way to 6000 rpm(or your redline). Only log the essential data with Evoscan. Logging all the data from your ECU will slow your logger down. The essentials include: wideband AFR, timing, 2 byte load or loadcalc, TPS, RPM, Knock, boost (if possible), coolant temp, IAT, injector pulse width, and injector duty cycle. You must study and understand what the data means. I say to do both 3rd and 4th gear pulls as the cars ive tuned have always hit higher loads(as they should) in 4th gear and they would have knock if i didnt.
Third, download the rom image from your ECU using the tactrix cable and Ecuflash. Save the image to your lap top. Make sure the you write the immobilizer code in your rom on a piece of paper and save it. Understand what the tables in the rom mean. Do not touch them or modify them until you understand what they mean.
Fourth, now that you have read a whole ton and logged your Eclipse, you can proceed to modify the tables in your rom. The most important advice I could give you is to work INCREMENTALLY. Make small changes to the tables. For example, in the high octane fuel table lean out the map by making changes of no more than 0.3-0.4 target AFR. Do not go too aggressive in your changes. Another important piece of advice is to make the changes SMOOTH between cells. Recently, I saw a map that had the target AFR jump from 10.9, to 9.4 in two adjacent cells in the fuel map. This same map had a timing jump from 7* to 12* from 5500 to 6000 rpm. . The lack of smoothness in the map transition will more than likely trigger knock. A 4* jump from one load cell to the next will more than likely trigger knock on 91 octane gas. THIS is the exact reason Tephra 7 has bigmaps. More resolution as a whole for smoother transitions throughout the map versus just the idle ranges.
So which part of the rom do you start tweaking first?
Generally, speaking Eclipse's with a stock Evo rom tend to have a lot of timing advance. Timing advance refers to the degrees that the spark plug is fired prior to the piston reaching Top Dead Center (BTDC). The higher the timing number in the load cell that the car hits during WOT operation, the further ahead of TDC that the spark plug is fired. This is known as advanced timing. The lower the timing number in the load cell during WOT, the closer to TDC that the spark plug is fired. As the rpm increases so does the timing advance. Why? Well the engine has faster speeds and the spark plug must be fired earlier or else there would not be enough time to complete the burn of the air/fuel mixture.
The Evo Rom was designed by Mitsubishi to run on 93 octane gas, so if you have it use it! The higher the octane the better. but in alot of places theres only $#@!ty 91 octane gas. Almost all of the stock evo roms that I have logged had 6-7 counts of knock in the 5500+ rpm region, and thats on a evo so your Eclipse will knock even more on a stock evo rom. Thats because in 3gs less timing can be run overall because of the sohc head's stock design being more knock prone
So my first approach when tuning is always to eliminate the knock. This means that you must retard the timing numbers (read fire the spark closer to TDC) in the high octane ignition map(s) especially in the higher rpms. My approach to timing is to follow the MTBT method, i.e., Minimum Timing for Best Torque. Simply stated, the method declares that a tuner should advance timing until advancing the timing no longer yields gain in power/torque or, lacking a dyno, until knock is encountered.
NB: The method outlined above to setting the timing ONLY applies to 91-93 octane gasoline. If you are using E85 advancing the timing until knock is encountered will yield poor or catastrophic results. You can go past MBT on E85 and not encounter knock. You might end up damaging your engine.
Tuning the Air Fuel Ratio (AFR)
AFR refers to how many parts of air are mixed with how many parts of fuel. So an 11:1 AFR means that 11 parts of air are being mixed with 1 part of fuel to create the air/fuel mixture. When your Eclipse is at idle or at cruising speeds your AFR is around 14.5-14.7:1. This is known as stoichometric or stoich for short. It has been found that the 14.7:1 mixture produces the least amount of emissions. And since cars spend 90% of their time at idle/cruise then that is the number that the manufacturers use to reduce the emissions on their car. It is worth noting that the 14.7:1 AFR does not produce the best gas mileage. The best gas mileage is produced are 15.2:1 AFR.
So what should my AFR be? Well most tuners will say 13:1 with onset of boost going to 12.5:1 for peak boost, then dropping to 12:1 and staying between 11.9:1-11.5:1 to redline. But as your not a pro tuner and are most likely a noob. I suggest 12.5:1 with the onset of boost dropping to 12:1 for peak boost, then staying between 11.5:1-11:1 to redline. Remember its always safer to run richer than to run lean!
So why tune the AFR last? There are two main reasons. First, changing the timing map has an impact on the AFR. If you tune the AFR before timing and then you tune timing, the AFR will change and you will have to do it again. Second, increasing the boost will also impact your AFR, obviously. Why? The higher the boost the higher the load cell that the car will hit in the fuel map. Mitsubishi designed the fuel map to become richer the higher the load cells. So when you up the boost you will hit those higher load cells and the car will run richer. If you tuned your AFR before your boost, then you will have to do it again after you increase the boost. Why do things twice?
Reading your knock sensor
An ideal combustion process behaves in the following manner:
1. The air fuel mixture is brought into the combustion chamber. As stated before most tuners run between 11.9-11.5:1 AFR after peak boost to redline.
2. The intake and exhaust valves close and the spark plug fires.
3. After the spark is fired the burning of the mixture proceeds. It begins at the spark plug and progresses in an orderly fashion across the combustion chamber. It is as if you took a pebble and threw it in a pond and watched the ripples progress outward from where the pebble fell. The burn should be complete with no remaining air-fuel mixture by the end of the combustion process.
In reality combustion sometimes does not progress in an orderly and smooth fashion. Sometimes the air-fuel mixture spontaneously combusts after the spark plug is fired but before the flame front reaches the mixture. This is commonly known as detonation or more commonly knock. Why does that happen? Too much pressure and too much heat combined with the lack of enough octane in the mixture to resist self-combustion. Think of octane as the ability of gasoline to resist self-combustion under pressure and heat. The higher the octane the less likely the gasoline will self-combust under high boost and heat that the Evo is known to generate.
When a car knocks, it causes a very sharp pressure spike that is outside the normal shape of a pressure curve during normal combustion. The pressure spike creates a force in the combustion chamber. The structure of the engine pings/rings in reaction to the force generated from the pressure spike. That is where the knock sensor steps in.
The knock sensor is usually connected to the back of the engine block. It is nothing more than a microphone. It reads the noise in Hertz and transmits it to the ECU. The ECU filters that noise using 12 different tables in the rom and decides if the noise is knock. If it is, the ECU sends a signal to the sensors to pull the timing in order to save the engine from further detonation and possibly damage. The knock sensing system is reactive and not pro-active. The timing pull happens after knock is detected and pulls timing to prevent further damage. It does not prevent knock, it tries to limit it after it has happened.
The signal that the ECU spits out is commonly known as “knock sum.” The loggers that we use have the ability to log knock sum. Generally speaking the higher the knock sum the more timing will get pulled, the lower the knock sum the less timing will get pulled. More on that later.
So what sort of damage does knock cause?
If left unchecked, knock can break the spark plugs, the valves, and the rings around the pistons. Second, knock can be very abrasive to the crown of the piston. Pistons on an engine that is suffering from excessive knock will look like as if it has been sandblasted with small pits in the top of the piston. Finally, excessive knock will cause a premature failure of your rod bearings resulting in the very distinctive rod knock sound.
Having said the above about the dangers of knock do not be surprised to know that almost all cars knock. As long as the knock is occasional and moderate cars can run for thousands of miles with little to no problems. While detonation is not an optimum situation for engine operation, it does not guarantee engine failure.
So how should I deal with knock?
When tuning your Eclipse it is advisable to tune timing, fuel, and boost w/o triggering more than 1-2 occasional counts of knock, three at the most. We know for a fact that 3 knock counts pull 1* of timing. I have also logged occasions when 1 knock count pulls 1* of timing.
I tune for 1 to 2 occasional and sporadic counts of knock, three at most. Anything above that is unacceptable. Here is my take on knock:
1. All cars knock on occasion. Generally speaking, the first WOT log that you do tends to be knock prone. You have to do at least three back-to-back logs to make sure that knock is consistent. I do not worry about an occasional log that has knock it. If the knock is transient and does not repeat, I usually ignore it.
2. Knock is a problem when it is consistent and repetitive, i.e., it happens every log and at the same point in the rpm range. That is the kind of knock to worry about and work hard to eliminate.
So my Eclipse has more than 2 counts of knock and the knock is consistent and repetitive. What should I do to eliminate it?
IMO, the biggest cause of knock on an Eclipse is too much timing advance. Let us take a look at this stock Evo 8 with no tuning. This Evo 8 consistently and repetitively registered 5-6 counts of knock from 5000 rpm on. Below is a chart of a typical 3rd gear WOT run on a Evo 8.
Notice that the timing @ 5224 rpm was 10* and after 6 counts of knock the timing was pulled to 8* by 5500 rpm. 6 counts of knock pulled 2* of timing, in line with our assumption that 3 counts of knock pull 1* of timing. Why am I showing and talking about this Evo8? Well Evo's and Eclipse's have the same Tuning process and well your using their Roms or ecu and roms so it you the same tables.
So what is the ECU telling us to do to combat knock?
We know from MTBT (minimum timing best torque) theory that we should advance the timing until we either stop making power or we see the onset of knock. In this case we clearly see the onset of knock. So what we have to do is pull 2-3* of timing to combat the knock in that rpm range.
Here is the way the log looked after timing was pulled. The boost was almost unchanged and the AFR was slightly leaner in that rpm range. Pulling the timing from 10* to 7* @ 5200 rpm cured the knock in this instance.
Here is another example. The chart below is for an Evo 8 with the following modifications: TBE, O2 housing, 264 cams, Walbro fuel pump, 720 injectors, and Greddy EBC and a tune.
As you can see the car was knocking. The data labels show that it had: 3 counts of knock @ 5000 rpm that pulled 1* of timing, 5 counts of knock @ 5400 rpm that pulled 2* of timing, and 12 counts of knock @ 6250 rpm that pulled 4* of timing. These numbers are very closely in line with the fact that 3 counts of knock pull 1* of timing. By 7500 rpm the timing was @ 13* despite the fact that the timing in the rom map was much higher than that.
So what is the ECU telling us in this instance?
The ECU is telling us not to set timing more than 13* by 7500 rpm. We can basically set the timing at 13* by 7500 rpm and work our way backwards. With this in mind, I set the timing at 2-3* at peak boost and slowly incremented it upwards until the car hit 13* by 7500 rpm. Here is the way the log looked after the timing was changed:
As you can see, the serious knock in the car is gone. What remains are 1-2 counts of knock here and there. You will note that 1 count of knock still pulls 1* of timing as can be seen @ 7000 rpm, but most of time it is the 3 counts of knock that you will have to worry about. On this Evo, any timing increase beyond 13* triggered knock. So I left the timing at 13* at the top end.
And here is the final example.
This one is very interesting because the tuner wanted to force this Evo 9 to run advanced timing and was willing to run the car extremely rich to do it. At peak boost the target AFR was set to 7.4 and the knock prone segment of the power band had a target AFR of 8.5. The AFR curve on this car was only a smidgen better than the AFR on a stock Evo 8. But no matter how rich he ran the car, this Evo still knocked because of the advanced timing. The timing profile was block tuned with 5* from 1500-3500 rpm, 6* from 4000-5000 rpm, 7* @ 5500 rpm, 8* @ 6000 rpm, 11 @ 6500 rpm, 14* @ 7000 rpm and 16* @ 7500 rpm. Take a look at the chart below:
Notice how the Evo’s ECU pulled 3* of timing when it registered 8 counts of knock. Even though the tuner ran the car at 10.3:1 in order to make it accept 11* of timing, the car still knocked and ended up with 8* of timing @ 6500 rpm. So why not run 8* of timing to begin with and run the car safer with a decent AFR? If the ECU is going to pull the timing anyway, then why insist on advancing the timing so much and run the car as rich as stock to boot?
Here is a log form the car after the timing was retarded and the AFR leaned to reasonable levels:
The AFR is 11.13:1 in the knock prone area and the timing was set at 8* which is exactly what the ECU told us that this Evo wanted. The car is running leaner, cleaner and safer. It is also putting just as much power as before.
The above three examples show you why reading the knock sensor when setting the timing is essential. By reading the knock sensor the tuner(you) is able to give the your Eclipse the timing that it wants rather than the timing that you assumed it wanted.
Ok so now you have read all this, here are a few things to remember:
1.) Tuning your Eclipse is a long proccess and will take alot of time, gas, and trail and error!
2.) Go to Evom, to the ecuflash setion and read more. Tuning an Eclipse an Evo's is the exact same proccess!
3.) Always tune/adjust in small increaments!
4.) Its always safer to run rich than to run lean! Running rich will just result in small power loss, running lean can and WILL destroy you motor!
5.) You can never read to much or reread a thread to many times!
6.) Be SAFE!!! Tuning on the street is dangerous! And always remember Tune on a flat road!
Once you have read this read it again, then if you still have questions dont be afraid to ask. I promise I will not flame you if you have serious questions and have read this atleast TWICE. I read the evo verison on evom over 50 times(seriously), Along with hundreds of other tuning threads on evom.
Now is the time to talk about the limits of the stock SOHC 4g64 and DOHC swapped Stock 4g64 Block. From all of my researching and info provided from JohnBradley on evom, the rods from a stock 4g64 block appear to be the same as the ones from a 2g 4g63 2.0l Eclispe. It is possible that they are the same as a 2.0l and 2.4l have the same length rods(150mm). The 2g rods are good for around 320-330wtq, and as it is Known it is the TORQUE that breaks motors not hp. So with that being said keep your torque down and you will be fine as the SOHC head, intake manifold, an throotle body cant flow enough to go over that. But if you have the head swap just keep the torque down and you should be fine for around 350whp. Anything after that is just motor suicide! Also the turbo size plays a roll as a bigger turbo will hit thee numbers at a lower psi than a smaller turbo. Now remember psi doesnt matter on a built motor only the torque that it puts out does, but your motor is NOT built! Now the psi wont effect the pistons or rods as they will only break based on the torque the motor is puttin out BUT your rings are another story, your rings are not ment for boost and are the weakest link in a stock 4g64. With that being said I have pushed 20psi on a evo8 16g on a stock 4g64 sohc engine without problems, with a good tune with ZERO knock. But with just 2 more psi the rings went, now did i put out that much more torque that the rings went? No. I only gained 3-5wtq and whp. Even though i wasnt putting out that much more tq the cylinder pressure was 2psi high which caused the rings to fail. So I do not recomend anyone go over 20psi on a stock block no matter what turbo you have as the rings will let go sooner rather than later!
Again post up serious questions and you will get serious answers! This thread is not to talk about the stock 4g64 failure point, there already is a thread on that, I add that info strictly for reference for people in the tuning proccess!! Good Luck!2011 335is DCT, moving to Italy, looking for new car friends
05-30-2014, 04:57 PM #7
I'm trying to understand how we already have action in this forum.
05-30-2014, 05:03 PM #8
because there are 1,000,000 more modified Mitsubishis than there are Euros in the US.2011 335is DCT, moving to Italy, looking for new car friends
05-30-2014, 05:09 PM #9
Well then I am very glad I added mistubishiboost.com
Have fun @bigdnno98 because I don't know anything about this motor other than crankwalk stories.