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  1. #1
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    Batch 2 Preliminary dynos

    Well we finally got the car on the dyno and nothing went wrong!!! Its a friggin miracle! We only had an hour and we got in about 8 runs as you can see and one of those we decided to do a map 0 run right before the final run just to get a comparison. I just want to stress, this is not an everyday tune, shaft speeds were at 230K and BP was 2.5:1 or so. Boost was peaking at 24.4 at 4360 RPM down low and tapering to about 18.8 at 6800 RPM, running your turbos here daily will kill them off decently quickly. We were going to try one more revision with some Vanos changes and a bit more boost, but my hotspot decided to stop connecting to my laptop so I couldn't upload the map and we got what we got. Keep in mind this is with the cast wheels and we will be installing the 6x6 billet CHRA's soon and rerun it with no map changes, to crunch all the data. All in all I am happy with the results and I think this should at least quiet some of the people, some of the time. As always a huge thanks to Dzenno@ProTuningFreaks for taking his time to tune this for me. As far as I am concerned he is the best in the N54 game.

    Runs were done on 109 / E30 fuel with no meth. We wanted to run straight E85 but we the HPFP told us its not going to happen. So we lowered the ethanol content and added some race gas for safety. STD correction, Smoothing 0. In the last pic I bumped the smoothing up and you can see it lost a whopping .74 WHP and .53 WTQ. So changing smoothing around really wasn't doing much, I like to run on correction zero to see how smooth the graph really is with no help.

    I included the log and a screenshot of the AEM log. If anyone wants the AEM log you will need to download AEMdata and I have to get you some maths to add to the file to get the correct readings.
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    Last edited by Tony@VargasTurboTech; 11-15-2013 at 08:10 PM.

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    Nice! With meth? What fuel? Good job.

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    Nice to see some data. Curious to see the changes with the 6x6 wheel as this is what will be shipped with my turbos. Can't wait for PTF to tune my car when I get these in!!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    Nice! With meth? What fuel? Good job.
    That might help huh. I edited to add it. But we ran No meth, E30 / 109 mix for safety.

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    That torque is crazy! 591? Talk about doing some nasty burnouts....lol nice
    2009 335i coupe back to stock...for now

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    These numbers will be nice to compare too. I believe u will find more about the second setup when they've been swapped in place of these. Also, that torque is crazy! I'm sure that is very noticeable behind the wheel! Thanx for the data Tony! Looking forward to more.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    That torque is crazy! 591? Talk about doing some nasty burnouts....lol nice
    The car is nasty on the street, while not as fast as stage 3 once on boost, its honestly more fun to drive around town.

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    Holy torque batman!
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, S55s, N63s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    600wtq on stock frame or bust Click here to enlarge

    Those are nice numbers and nice boost in the midrange, that torque curve isn't a curve at all! You're sure you didn't accidentally hit the red button for the handy 100-shot right?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    600wtq on stock frame or bust Click here to enlarge

    Those are nice numbers and nice boost in the midrange, that torque curve isn't a curve at all! You're sure you didn't accidentally hit the red button for the handy 100-shot right?
    The next revision would have bumped us over the 600WTQ mark for sure. I was having D bump boost up down low by another lb or so. That would have been all it would have taken. The giant tq spike comes from being able to run a lot of boost down low but it tapering itself very quickly as the housings run out of breath. Trying to run more WGDC past 5200 stops netting more actual PSI after a certain point, we might not have been quite there yet but we were close. Having shaft speed monitoring etc, helps as we can see if bumping up WGDC brings up shaft speed but yields no extra boost, basically working the turbos harder but gaining nothing. Thats the benefits of having the data. With a different tune, you could easily have it make say 500-520 WTQ and it would look much more like a plateau rather than spike.

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    With your sensor suite I would really love to see what the shaft speed would do if you fired meth 6" or so upstream of the compressors.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    That might help huh. I edited to add it. But we ran No meth, E30 / 109 mix for safety.
    All that torque with(no meth)... and with cast wheels.. Click here to enlarge
    Looks like you came through with a good product Tony ..
    The numbers look good, i would be all over these turbo if i wasn't days away from buying a house.
    This changed my mind about a stage 2 setup

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    Fantastic. Really glad to see the design come through, this is great stuff. I knew it! Your delays were just too much like what happens to us at Honeywell every.damn.time. we do something like this for me to have a shadow of suspicion. Good for you Tony.

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    This is on stock fuel pump and rail. Is there an inline? Sorry if I missed it..
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, S55s, N63s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    What was the timing like?

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    Good numbers Tony!!!
    Click here to enlarge
    MOTIV750, MOTIV P-1000 PI, MOTIV/FUEL-IT! low pressure fuel system, AEM EMS/COBB AP, Aquamist HFS-3, ETS FMIC, SPEC stage 3+ clutch/SS flywheel, BC Racing coilovers and VMR wheels wrapped in Hankook RS3s.

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    Glad to see this is coming to fruition. I'll be interested to see the comparison between cast and billet wheels.
    Eppur si muove.

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    Will you be testing on pump gas, 93? Being stationed in Germany, I don't have the luxury of using the different types of fuel. I would like to know and I'm quite sure others, as well, what these would be capable of. In addition to using pump gas, are there any chances of using meth? Or will it be strictly different E85 blends
    E92 Monaco Blue AT 335I/ VTT S2B2/ JB4 G5 w/ BB Flash/ BMS DCI/ ER CP w/ Synaspe BOV/ M2 Exhaust/VRSF Dp's/ ETS 5' FMIC/ BMS OCC/ Coolingmist CMGS Autolearn Meth Kit/ VMR V710/ ST V1 Coilovers/BMS Spacers/Aero Lip/m3 replica side skirts/m3 Spoiler/BSW stage 1 audio uprade/ P3 Gauge/Morimoto 15k HID AE/3k HID Fogs/ interior led upgrade/ painted reflectors/ black kidney grills

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    3 out of 3 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    This is great data, but if you really want to push people to believe your product is superior you need to get a set on a JB4 powered car and have Terry tune it on that dyno he always uses. Back to back comparison between RB and VTT is where the proof will come from.
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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    I am in no way trying to stir drama or create negative backlash, but is the drop off in tq and whp more tune related or hardware related? I know you said you didnt have the time or wifi to finish and personally if I were you I would have just waited until you were content because people may look past that statement. I am not doing that I am just curious if you think you can flatten this graph out and keep the top end more juicy.

    Recent jb rb dynos keep the hp near 500 throughout the curve dropping just under 500 and not to far below around 6600. 20psi at 3k rpm 21.5 around 4500rpm than dropping slowly to 18psi... e60/meth ...

    This curve will make it an absolute blast to drive semi hard around the street and will have you sideways on command but in a race where you take the car to higher RPMS the avg hp may still be a significant amount lower than a comparable rb car.

    However, if these turbos are built to be stronger and last longer by a significant time period that would be a huge benefit to those looking for a one and done hybrid upgrade and these turbos will sell themselves on that alone.
    09 6AT 335i Coupe M-Sport - SOLD
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    Great work and results, props to Tony and Dzenno for this. I'm also curious to see how they can be pushed on E93 as that's what I would be running myself, but it's good to see how far you can push them before they run out of breath.

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    +1
    JB4 with backend flash, that's where the magic will happen.Click here to enlarge
    E92 Monaco Blue AT 335I/ VTT S2B2/ JB4 G5 w/ BB Flash/ BMS DCI/ ER CP w/ Synaspe BOV/ M2 Exhaust/VRSF Dp's/ ETS 5' FMIC/ BMS OCC/ Coolingmist CMGS Autolearn Meth Kit/ VMR V710/ ST V1 Coilovers/BMS Spacers/Aero Lip/m3 replica side skirts/m3 Spoiler/BSW stage 1 audio uprade/ P3 Gauge/Morimoto 15k HID AE/3k HID Fogs/ interior led upgrade/ painted reflectors/ black kidney grills

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Shadow007 Click here to enlarge
    +1
    JB4 with backend flash, that's where the magic will happen.Click here to enlarge
    LOL oh you guys Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ChuckD05 Click here to enlarge
    I am in no way trying to stir drama or create negative backlash, but is the drop off in tq and whp more tune related or hardware related? I know you said you didnt have the time or wifi to finish and personally if I were you I would have just waited until you were content because people may look past that statement. I am not doing that I am just curious if you think you can flatten this graph out and keep the top end more juicy.

    Recent jb rb dynos keep the hp near 500 throughout the curve dropping just under 500 and not to far below around 6600. 20psi at 3k rpm 21.5 around 4500rpm than dropping slowly to 18psi... e60/meth ...

    This curve will make it an absolute blast to drive semi hard around the street and will have you sideways on command but in a race where you take the car to higher RPMS the avg hp may still be a significant amount lower than a comparable rb car.

    However, if these turbos are built to be stronger and last longer by a significant time period that would be a huge benefit to those looking for a one and done hybrid upgrade and these turbos will sell themselves on that alone.
    All dynos read differently. On a dyno at SpecialtyZ (Terry and Shiv dyno there when using a Dynojet) I've seen posts about stock turbo FBO cars baselining in the 310-315whp range. The 300whp baseline here was also done in perfect conditions with E30/MS109 in the tank so all the octane and weather you need for any tune to run as well as it can. Pump gas would probably baseline ~10whp less. If you add another 10-15whp to this graph to compensate for the baseline you get higher numbers Click here to enlarge

    In terms of top end drop off, the tune is really pushed very hard as per Tony's request which is evident in the logs. In this last dyno run/map that Tony posted fuel is leaned out, timing at 15-15.5deg, turbos pushed to 85% wgdc and our VANOS settings that make for earlier spool and more power everywhere over what OTS maps provide on the BMS backend flash and Shiv's OFT. This is pushed hard. These things are suffering at these 220-230k rpm shaft speeds and more boost at the top won't happen in this configuration. The additional dc we applied may even hurt some top end power as its not providing any extra boost while it most likely hurts exhaust flow on the exhaust side decreasing efficiency in the 6k range but with only 8 runs that's as much as we could try. Maybe some intake piping would help flow up top too, not sure... With billet wheels Tony expects the speeds to go down a bit for the same boost levels. If the wheels end up being more efficient it might provide for some more power at the same boost while having lower shaft speeds. That would be pretty sweet.
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 11-15-2013 at 12:39 PM.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ChuckD05 Click here to enlarge
    I am in no way trying to stir drama or create negative backlash, but is the drop off in tq and whp more tune related or hardware related? I know you said you didnt have the time or wifi to finish and personally if I were you I would have just waited until you were content because people may look past that statement. I am not doing that I am just curious if you think you can flatten this graph out and keep the top end more juicy.

    Recent jb rb dynos keep the hp near 500 throughout the curve dropping just under 500 and not to far below around 6600. 20psi at 3k rpm 21.5 around 4500rpm than dropping slowly to 18psi... e60/meth ...

    This curve will make it an absolute blast to drive semi hard around the street and will have you sideways on command but in a race where you take the car to higher RPMS the avg hp may still be a significant amount lower than a comparable rb car.

    However, if these turbos are built to be stronger and last longer by a significant time period that would be a huge benefit to those looking for a one and done hybrid upgrade and these turbos will sell themselves on that alone.
    Chuck I think you may be a victim of the ole stretched out dyno charts here. Cause here is an RB dyno, claiming to be a record at the time running boost much higher to redline, a guaranteed death sentence for his turbos. Then we have our graph below it.

    First the RBs hold 400 ft lbs of tq from about 2800 to about 6300 or 3500 RPM. Where as our graph shows 400 ft lbs of tq from 2750 to about 6250 or the exact same 3500. This graph also shows the RBs holding 450 ft lbs from about 3000 to 6100 or 3100 rpm. Where as graph shows the batch 2's holding 450 wtq from 3000-5750 or 2750 RPM a staggering loss of 350 rpm. And for 500 ft lbs of tq The Rb's hold it from from 3800 to about 5800 or 2000 rpm. Our graph shows us holding 500 ft lbs of tq from about 3150 to 5400 RPM or 2250 RPM a gain of 250 rpm and it comes in earlier. So exactly where are we giving up all this tq, and power under the curve? If I would have grabbed the DJ file and used the normal presentation the curve would have looked much different and flatter. As I stated in a few posts above, if you want to mimmick a curve like the one below even more closely, its really very simple, bring the boost down a few psi down low to those tq levels and don't taper is so aggressively and your curve will look almost identical or actually much better. (even though me just changing the scaling would have a drastic difference on how our curve looks, its got more to do with the RB graph has 20 rpm points compared to our 10 meaning their graph is twice as stretched out) Both turbos are using the same size turbine wheels, meaning the housings are both opened up the same, and for these we have installed now, the exact same compressor wheel. Meaning the only thing really going to change the curves around is tune, that's the awesome thing about custom tuning, choose your poison. Tell them what you want and you get it. I told D I wanted a bunch of boost down low so he gave it to me. It has nothing to do with the hardware.

    Edit: Also interesting to note is we reach 500 WHP 550 RPM sooner than the RB's, we do taper quicker but that's due to the aggressive boost taper we were running. Bottom line is, the turbos are performing about the same, tune is going to change the curve around and power points vastly. Running that much boost to redline like the RB's were, means they go boom in short order.
    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge
    Last edited by Tony@VargasTurboTech; 11-15-2013 at 12:26 PM.

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