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  1. #1
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    9 out of 15 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No

    FMICs: Stock versus Aftermarket

    This post by JoshBoody is hidden due to excessive negative ratings. Click expand to view the post.


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    Very informative, I love my Helix FMIC.

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    This is half the story. I'd like to see the WGDC's as well

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    IATs aren't the entire story with an FMIC either. The flow rate and pressure drop of the various aftermarket FMICs are key as well. The Helix, just on that stepped design isn't conducive to good flow characteristics.

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    I won't make fun of your boost curves but I'll make fun of that terrible scaling Click here to enlarge depending how far away the nozzles are the wet bulb effect is only really a topic for theoretical debates which on the forums usually don't go very well as you know

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    IATs aren't the entire story with an FMIC either. The flow rate and pressure drop of the various aftermarket FMICs are key as well. The Helix, just on that stepped design isn't conducive to good flow characteristics.
    I have shown data on this with AMS versus Helix pertaining to WGDC. I tried to take some sampling in this case but tough to match weather and boost exactly... I didn't set out to test this... above was just taken from already gathered data. Plus at lowish boost its difficult to see the differences... I didn't turn up boost until after Helix install.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Depending on the new turbo rep points I get, I’ll post some more threads of random info I’ve learned.
    This Click here to enlarge
    I think this is not what the meaning of the contest is all about.
    There are two theories to arguing with women. Neither one works

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    I just want to say, any decent intercooler is going to lower charge temps on the top end and thus drive up WGDC. While back pressure factors into this, the air density effect will be the primary driver of WGDC on the top end in gears 3 or higher. I don't think you will see a huge difference between most ICs tbh. Maybe a few degrees and a few % WGDC.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    IATs aren't the entire story with an FMIC either. The flow rate and pressure drop of the various aftermarket FMICs are key as well. The Helix, just on that stepped design isn't conducive to good flow characteristics.
    That is a decent guess, but I bet there is no data to support the pressure drop being higher, and even if it is higher, is it high enough to shadow the benefits of the superior cooling benefits of Helix.

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    Not sure why a few people didn't like your post, gave you some rep op.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    This Click here to enlarge
    I think this is not what the meaning of the contest is all about.
    Its a good reason to post stuff that takes effort. Maybe instead of playing golf today i would create some threads.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Not sure why a few people didn't like your post, gave you some rep op.
    I think others think like DavidV. Hopefully if someone disagreed with the content they would post why, instead of ninja negs.

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    If it makes you feel any better I didn't neg rep you.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I think others think like DavidV.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    If it makes you feel any better I didn't neg rep you.
    For the record, I didn't neg rep you either.
    But my point is that if I would only make posts here if I expected to be repped I would post a lot less and the forum would be a lot quieter then it is now.
    Normally you make/create posts/treads to inform, humor, entertain, discuss.
    Not primarily to expect rep points.
    And certainly not with a condition that you will only post more information if you get positive rep points.
    Just my .02
    There are two theories to arguing with women. Neither one works

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    I think anyone bringing technical data and discussion to the forum deserves + rep, even if you don't agree with them. It could be a very bad situation if people stop posting data because of neg rep they fear they may receive from some of the more opinionated(and rep blessed) members.
    Click here to enlarge
    MOTIV750, MOTIV P-1000 PI, MOTIV/FUEL-IT! low pressure fuel system, AEM EMS/COBB AP, Aquamist HFS-3, ETS FMIC, SPEC stage 3+ clutch/SS flywheel, BC Racing coilovers and VMR wheels wrapped in Hankook RS3s.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    For the record, I didn't neg rep you either.
    But my point is that if I would only make posts here if I expected to be repped I would post a lot less and the forum would be a lot quieter then it is now.
    Normally you make/create posts/treads to inform, humor, entertain, discuss.
    Not primarily to expect rep points.
    And certainly not with a condition that you will only post more information if you get positive rep points.
    Just my .02
    It's fine, during the contest some will post just for rep. The idea is to encourage posting/activity anyway. So, it's working.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    It's fine, during the contest some will post just for rep. The idea is to encourage posting/activity anyway. So, it's working.
    I respect that, and also expected it.
    But he specifically added a condition to add useful information based on the rep points he would receive.
    That part I didn't like.
    There are two theories to arguing with women. Neither one works

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    But he specifically added a condition to add useful information based on the rep points he would receive.
    That part I didn't like.
    Agreed, neither did I, and it seems he got some negs due to it.

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    I neged him. Did not like the rep point for additional info request.
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    Ha, the thread has been hidden... Cool.


    Had some good threads planned too:
    ATR tuning including boost control (with PID, which i experimented with last week), some charting of req/actual loads and how it relates to boost, how to keep boost more steady with higher IATs, throttle mapping, etc.
    For stacking some of the nuances in throttle, VANOS, ign/AFR mapping, fueling when your base map is a lower load target then the output.
    And what I'm most interested in... results of aftermarket DPs with exact same tuning parameters.
    Installed the ER sport oil cooler last week and could give a brief review with oil temp data soon.


    Anyway its fun posting information like this when there's an interest, but i take it some of the cool BB peeps don't care to see my data/experiences... I'll never be one of the cool people here.


    I'll stick with being a lurker and the occasional comment when i can.


    The data i have gathered over the years is useful to me, but why take the time to post it if its not appreciated. On this forum some of the satisfaction is rep points, which have always been scarse for me... even though i do post useful info most of the time along with the occasional opinion, or argument with DZ or Sticky (which can be informative also). But i guess the mention abouts reps earlier is more due to my rep history. I think the hidden OP is more uncool me then the mention of reps.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Anyway its fun posting information like this when there's an interest, but i take it some of the cool BB peeps don't care to see my data/experiences... I'll never be one of the cool people here.
    I think it's a matter of how you go about wording your post. Just try to contribute without a deliberate rep fishing angle and there would be no issue. Your past likely plays into it was well.

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    2 out of 3 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Here is some testing I did with my last car inline with this discussion.

    There are 4 logs of runs to 110+mph when it was 93 degrees and humid.

    Mods
    Stage One Cobb 93 octane
    AR Catless DPs
    Helix FMIC
    DCI

    Intake temps for each pull started at 107, 115, 125 and 135 for each.

    Total time for all four pulls were completed in 3 mins 2 seconds to see how she held up with some hot intake temps. The last is the WGDC included for all WOOTs of the run.
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    2015 - Cayman GTS - Stock
    2011 - 335is e92 - Cobb PTF E40/Rob Beck/AR/Helix (458 rwtq and 479 rwhp) - Retired
    2007 - 911 Turbo - EP1/AMS (617 awtq and 500 awhp) - Retired
    2008 - 335i e92 - Cobb/AR/Helix/OSS (384 rwtq and 356 rwhp) - Retired
    2003 and 2005 330i/ci zhp - Stock - Retired

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    Some people just hate data, figures, math etc. In the end all that matters is love anyways I guess... I stopped posting data and facts.

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    'You don't have enough reputation ( 1000 ) to view this.'

    This is ridiculous.
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  24. #24
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    Ha, rough crowd. I thought this info useful as I had collected for my own purposes.
    2015 - Cayman GTS - Stock
    2011 - 335is e92 - Cobb PTF E40/Rob Beck/AR/Helix (458 rwtq and 479 rwhp) - Retired
    2007 - 911 Turbo - EP1/AMS (617 awtq and 500 awhp) - Retired
    2008 - 335i e92 - Cobb/AR/Helix/OSS (384 rwtq and 356 rwhp) - Retired
    2003 and 2005 330i/ci zhp - Stock - Retired

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    0 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by uniter Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    'You don't have enough reputation ( 1000 ) to view this.'

    This is ridiculous.
    Here is what you are missing:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Josh boody
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Recently had my turbos replaced under the 82k warranty, so I went through some of the modding stages again... below I compiled some of the IAT logs between ICs. Very clear that an upgraded IC is important. I do think there’s a pretty big difference between aftermarket options and I have shown this before based on my experiences… specifically between Helix and AMS.

    Why is an “aftermarket” IC important. Of course temp for spark timing… lower IAT, less chance for detonation, and more timing advance putting you closer to MBT. If running E85 and/or meth, timing is not so important since the octane will allow a proper timing curve, BUT:

    E85: apart from the tuning aspect (DME IAT compensation), IATs effect oxygen density. Lower the temp, higher the density, more O2 = more power. Someone else can do the math on 20, 30deg which is significant.

    Meth (post-IC): People see their IATs on Meth and think no need for an IC. What they are seeing is NOT the true IAT. Meth cools the air, but not to the degree that’s seen in the logs. IAT sensor output is a false reading due to “wet bulb effect”. How much is it false, I can’t say. I can say that the apprx IAT % increase you see off meth is also happening on meth. There’s NO heat soak suppression with Meth… you just can’t see it in the log. The IC is heak soaking at the same rate on/off meth. Meth temp decrease from evaporation is a %... so final IAT depends on the temp post IC… doesn't matter what the IAT sensor is reading.

    Anyway, to the logs. Very simply I chose randomish logs with Helix and stock IC. The tuning in these comparisons is relatively close… lowish boost around 14, 15psi mid-range to 13ish at 6k rpms. Some of the runs are while moving, some after a stop light with static heat… some back to back… basically random. All OFF meth of course.

    Depending on the new turbo rep points I get, I’ll post some more threads of random info I’ve learned. Maybe ATR tuning, specifics on stacking, other stuff. Tomorrow I may run out and do some virtual logs to compile pre/post DP install… that should be interesting. Have some good ones pre-DP. But we’ll see if the reps are worth the effort…

    ps. don't make fun of some of the boost curves... I was dialing in the new turbos. Wasn't so easy after having very loose WGs.


    If you like it rep him not me.

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