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Thread: Cobb Table Descriptions and Tuning Tips

              
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    Cobb Table Descriptions and Tuning Tips

    Hello All,
    I am thinking about switching to Cobb soon, and have been trying to learn as much as I can about tuning and the AP. Stumbled across this bit of info and thought I would share as I didn't see it posted anywhere. Some good info in there, so enjoy!

    https://static.cobbtuning.com/cobbtu...lpFile_BMW.pdf

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    Never seen this manual, only a month old (10/22/2012). ATR is way over my head & I'll let Jake to continue to tune my car
    COBB AP ProTune by Bren of ///Bren Tuning
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    That's our new tuning guide. If you click Help in ATR, you'll get this as well. We added some new info since our last guide, so everyone should definitely check it out.
    Josh Dankel
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    @Josh@Cobb - Have you guys found a solution yet for the AT cars timing flatlining in 5th + 6th gears?
    COBB AP ProTune by Bren of ///Bren Tuning
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
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    @Josh@Cobb - Have you guys found a solution yet for the AT cars timing flatlining in 5th + 6th gears?
    I don't have a fix yet, but I am specifically working on timing issues right now. As soon as I have something solid to test, I'll let you guys know.
    Josh Dankel
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Josh@Cobb Click here to enlarge
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    I don't have a fix yet, but I am specifically working on timing issues right now. As soon as I have something solid to test, I'll let you guys know.
    Awesome, thanks a lot for making this a priority. My concern is since I have 2 ProTunes, when the timing issue is solved can my ProTunes be fixed? Or will be they need to be remade?
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    There is different "ignition cut" effects with different base maps. For example 1 (or all) of the 402 (don't remember which) maps, ign cuts almost randomly... probably in over boost situations, but the correlation is not so straight forward. Now porting the same parameters to the original 300 map0 as base there is no ign cut. I did keep the torque limits unchanged, but iirc these were lower in v300.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
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    There is different "ignition cut" effects with different base maps. For example 1 (or all) of the 402 (don't remember which) maps, ign cuts almost randomly... probably in over boost situations, but the correlation is not so straight forward. Now porting the same parameters to the original 300 map0 as base there is no ign cut. I did keep the torque limits unchanged, but iirc these were lower in v300.
    Interesting..
    Almost every time my car overboosts, ignition timing drops during this event.
    With Disable Torque Intervention by Ign disabled, the TQ Limit tables can still effect the tune?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by boosted-M Click here to enlarge
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    Interesting..
    Almost every time my car overboosts, ignition timing drops during this event.
    With Disable Torque Intervention by Ign disabled, the TQ Limit tables can still effect the tune?
    If the DME determines the case is bad enough, it can still pull some timing even with the Disable Torque Intervention by Ign switch disabled. @boosted-M and @benzy89 send me an email with a couple logs showing this and I'll add it to my folder. There are a couple different types of timing issues that I'm working on (timing drop during boost overshoot, and timing drop during shift primarily), but none of them are extremely common. I'll be on the dyno checking a few things this week and hopefully I'll have something to test very soon. I ant to get rid of any possible case, so a few more examples won't hurt.

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    my car looses timing on any short shift and always in 4th and 5th... its extremely annoying
    09 6AT 335i Coupe M-Sport

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    Is the timing drops on the 4th to 5th shift only an issue with auto trannys or could it also afflict manual trannys?

    Neil

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Josh@Cobb Click here to enlarge
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    Wow, nice to see a Cobb representative answering ATR-related questions !

    To Josh@Cobb: I have one problem, after installing my RB turbos, I can't seem to be able to tune out overboost at very low boost (0-2psi boost target, for example when driving in town and accelerating at part throttle from 1600 to 2500RPM). This causes quite severe throttle closures (70%->18-20%) and the car does not deliver all the low-end punch that it would be capable of if there wasn't for the throttle closures.

    The WGDC Base table values are already at 0 for those MAF and Boost Setpoint Factor values (yet the total WGDC is semnificative - values like 15%), and I still get 1-3 psi of constant overboost (not spikes). Is there a way to further lower the WGDC (like using negative values in the table) ? The adder tables do not effect that area of the WGDC table.

    Thanks !

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MDORPHN Click here to enlarge
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    Is the timing drops on the 4th to 5th shift only an issue with auto trannys or could it also afflict manual trannys?

    Neil
    I have the timing drops on my shifts with a manual, they were actually worse prior to installing a WOTBox and using no lift shifting. I typically get around 3 cylinders that correct 3.38* post shift consistently. I would sometimes flatline timing trying to shift quickly before, even when running meth. BTW, now the NLS with meth spraying through the 150ms shift creates a fantastic light show out of the back of the car, it scares women and small children. 4th -> 5th shift has a mini explosion lol.
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    Timing corrections are usually just that... Sometimes its the knock sensors being over-protective, and that's why you should look for multiple cylinders. What I'm looking at are timing dropouts. Where the actual ignition timing (not corrections) drop to zero for what seems like no reason. I've got a few examples already, so I'll let you guys know what I find. I want to sort out all possible cases, so I'll keep you guys up to date on possible fixes to test for me.
    Josh Dankel
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Josh@Cobb Click here to enlarge
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    Timing corrections are usually just that... Sometimes its the knock sensors being over-protective, and that's why you should look for multiple cylinders. What I'm looking at are timing dropouts. Where the actual ignition timing (not corrections) drop to zero for what seems like no reason. I've got a few examples already, so I'll let you guys know what I find. I want to sort out all possible cases, so I'll keep you guys up to date on possible fixes to test for me.
    Thanks Josh. Whenever i was experiencing the timing flatlines on both my manual E92, and a friends Auto E60 535, i logged Knock voltage and never saw an increase, but timing would flatline on multiple cylinders. Even when getting timing corrections during a 3rd gear pull, i could never log any increase in knock voltage. Do you guys typically see knock voltage increase when timing corrections are occuring?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
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    Thanks Josh. Whenever i was experiencing the timing flatlines on both my manual E92, and a friends Auto E60 535, i logged Knock voltage and never saw an increase, but timing would flatline on multiple cylinders. Even when getting timing corrections during a 3rd gear pull, i could never log any increase in knock voltage. Do you guys typically see knock voltage increase when timing corrections are occuring?
    I believe the flatlines are not necessarily knock related at all like regular corrections are. I just need to verify why the DME is pulling actual advance and where its getting the zero value from. I have some things I'm debugging currently that I hope will provide the answers.
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    @themyst was another COBB user having this problem & made a thread about it back in September (http://bimmerboost.com/showthread.ph...-6AT-Cobb-cars)
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    Looking forward to whatever you guys can figure out with it. On this side I can see it's a non-knock related timing reduction, almost as if it's triggering some sort of torque limiting, but have not been able to pin down exactly what is causing it. It seems every week or two I chaise down a red herring on it and wind up nowhere so hopefully you guys can just find the table responsible for it and add it in to the pro suite. Click here to enlarge
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 12-03-2012 at 01:45 PM.
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    here's an example. To clarify it's not an ign cut, but retard. There's actually 2 instances here. The first is strongly related to over boost, but the second is only slight overboost and req load is NOT exceeded (load's not shown in graph). The goal should be ign retard only in extreme situations, with throttle closure being the primary reaction.

    Using a stepped throttle approach in logging is great for evaluating the mapping/tune.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
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    Looking forward to whatever you guys can figure out with it. On this side I can see it's a non-knock related timing reduction, almost as if it's triggering some sort of torque limiting, but have not been able to pin down exactly what is causing it. It seems every week or two I chaise down a red herring on it and wind up nowhere so hopefully you guys can just find the table responsible for it and add it in to the pro suite. Click here to enlarge
    You and @dzenno said it was octane related I said it was the ecu being a neo nazi pos, turns out I was right all along. Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
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    You and @dzen no said it was octane related I said it was the ecu being a neo nazi pos, turns out I was right all along. Click here to enlarge
    As @Josh@Cobb indicated there are 2 issues. One can very well be fuel delivery related (i.e. timing corrections and having a slight lean condition post shift). On your car this is like what you'd see on a 3-4 shift. The other issue has nothing to do with timing corrections but has to do with boost overshoot where the DME changes what looks like its safety strategy and decides to pull applied timing out (i.e. NOT timing corrections).
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
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    You and @dzen no said it was octane related I said it was the ecu being a neo nazi pos, turns out I was right all along. Click here to enlarge
    Knock can cause a similar effect. And you told me D fixed it for you. Click here to enlarge

    Anyway the last few days I've been exploring introducing throttle closure during and right after the shift to see if that fools the DME in to staying on its higher timing target. As usual inconclusive results but I've been hampered by bad weather. Hopefully it drys out so I can continue testing the theory.
    Attached Images Attached Images   
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 12-03-2012 at 02:57 PM.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
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    Knock can cause a similar effect. And you told me D fixed it for you. Click here to enlarge

    Anyway the last few days I've been exploring introducing throttle closure during and right after the shift to see if that fools the DME in to staying on its higher timing target. As usual inconclusive results but I've been hampered by bad weather. Hopefully it drys out so I can continue testing the theory.
    What is strange is when throttle sustains 76-77 at WOT instead of 80-81 timing recovers near perfect when I was testing with dzenno. Once the throttle was cleaned up, the issue came back.

    I also had perfect timing recovery when req boost drops suddenly to say 8 psi north of 6500 rpm. I sent you that log long ago, not sure if you saw it. This was on old v301 logic map used for stacking.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
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    As @Josh@Cobb indicated there are 2 issues. One can very well be fuel delivery related (i.e. timing corrections and having a slight lean condition post shift). On your car this is like what you'd see on a 3-4 shift. The other issue has nothing to do with timing corrections but has to do with boost overshoot where the DME changes what looks like its safety strategy and decides to pull applied timing out (i.e. NOT timing corrections).
    The 4-5 shift does not flatline in context of this discussion when stacked with JB4 iso because the actual boost being fed never exceeds req boost. I am well aware we are talking about two things here; the first being a massive correction in multiple cylinders on a 2-3 or 3-4 shift and one where timing simply does not recover with no corrections evident.

    The issue I was speaking of in context of this discussion was the one where timing corrections show post shift.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge
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    Wow, nice to see a Cobb representative answering ATR-related questions !

    To Josh@Cobb: I have one problem, after installing my RB turbos, I can't seem to be able to tune out overboost at very low boost (0-2psi boost target, for example when driving in town and accelerating at part throttle from 1600 to 2500RPM). This causes quite severe throttle closures (70%->18-20%) and the car does not deliver all the low-end punch that it would be capable of if there wasn't for the throttle closures.

    The WGDC Base table values are already at 0 for those MAF and Boost Setpoint Factor values (yet the total WGDC is semnificative - values like 15%), and I still get 1-3 psi of constant overboost (not spikes). Is there a way to further lower the WGDC (like using negative values in the table) ? The adder tables do not effect that area of the WGDC table.

    Thanks !
    To me this sounds like the wastegate itself even when fully open cannot bypass enough exhaust gasses at those low RPM / high load conditions. Even the New BW EFR's with an internal WG designed to bypass a LOT of gases around the turbine has a disclaimer that says for some applications where high load / low RPM boost is not able to be controlled an external WG may be needed. Not saying this is your issue. But if WGDC is at 0 meaning the flapper is fully open no amount of tuning would be able to fix it. As I said IF this is indeed your problem. Just a thought
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