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Thread: ESS dyno discrepancy, what is up with it and will ESS respond?

              
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    ESS dyno discrepancy, what is up with it and will ESS respond?

    Now, we have had several discussions about ESS and I feel I was too aggressive in retrospect. However, today, I was reminded why I was so aggressive in pointing out what ESS does regarding misleading people with dyno graphs.

    There was a discussion on e46fanatics regarding a blown motor by VF and ESS got dragged in. Roman@ESS then made this post:

    http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showpos...7&postcount=89

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Roman@ESS
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    ESS VT3 supercharged S54: pump fuel / Vortech blower

    Click here to enlarge
    Now, what is funny about this S54 setup? It is the exact same graph ESS used for an E92 M3 setup:

    http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showpos...0&postcount=33

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Asbjorn@ESS
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    Here is a dynorun of a dealers project E92 M3.

    Engine : Stock
    Kit : ESS VT2-600
    Software : ESS "Race" tune
    Fuel : 98RON
    Exhaust : Custom catless exhaust

    Click here to enlarge
    I am shocked, freaking shocked, they would actually not remember they posted the same graph for two different setups on two different cars and not realize that they would get caught. Now, you might be asking yourself, does ESS really mislead people this way with graphs?

    Well, I honestly wanted to mend fences with them. I wrote an e-mail to ESS earlier this week thinking that maybe I went went overboard and somehow I was actually in the wrong. This is what I said:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky
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    I feel that maybe lines were drawn unfairly and certain things became tuner vs. tuner. In the future, if I know how ESS likes to market, you will definitely want to have your product on BimmerBoost. Basically, I would like to open a dialog with ESS and give you the opportunity to at least address some of the claims that were made. I do not have any desire to exclude you or treat you unfairly and want to give you and ESS a fair chance if it is possible. I am not asking for sponsorship or vendor fees or anything like simply attempting to not divide the forced induction communities into separate camps. I believe there are a lot of positives to your products and I intend to make a front page thread this week inviting ESS to a fair and open dialog reagarding their forced induction products as there already is discussion on them and some members with them. I would like to end any and all hostilities and if that involves removing past threads you feel are unfair since you were not able to provide your point of view, so be it.

    Let me know if you would be willing to bridge any gaps and willing to respond to a discussion regarding ESS setups. It can be set up as an interview style locked so no one else can participate in the thread if you like. Let me know, I do not want to have ESS excluded and want to do what I can to possibly address any past issues.
    Now I know, this was a mistake. ESS won't change, and ESS will not come here to address the issue. They will continue to hide where they are protected by the moderation.

    We will never get an answer to why their M3 makes over 600 whp through the stock exhaust on pump gas and 8 psi:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Asbjorn@ESS
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    Tests were performed on a 100% stock car on pump fuel only. The kit is 100% bolt-on.

    Click here to enlarge
    Independent dynos are not anywhere near this.

    I want to make it clear, there is no witch hunt against ESS. They make a good product, great product even. I considered their product. I recommend their product and vendors here carry their product and should do so with confidence in it. We are proud to have them. However, their marketing is misleading. NO INDEPENDENT DYNO has even remotely come close to their stock exhaust pump gas dynos. They use the same dyno for various setups to try and make their cars look stronger than they are. My friends, that is straight up lying to people and misleading them.

    Here is an ESS Stage 2 on an independent dyno with an Fabspeed X-pipe and Gintani Race exhaust:

    Click here to enlarge

    Scratching your head? Me too.

    Once again, ESS makes great products and they are free to address any of these questions, however, Roman refuses to engage in a discussion with me where there is no moderator control in his favor. I think people should really question the integrity of their marketing if they refuse to answer these legitimate questions with such overwhelming evidence of misleading information. We just want an explanation. If Roman and ESS won't address this, that should tell someone all they need to know about the dyno claims.

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    BAM! What did I tell you Sticky! I knew I was right a few months ago when I saw this graph being used for the e9x kits! An s54 that revs to 8200 rpm? lol CAUGHT RED HANDED!

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    Every company out in the market will say or show graphs with higher numbers then what they are really putting down. That is a known fact. Itís like boys telling girls that they got a 12 inch dick when they donít!!

    Iím running the ESS VT1 kit on my car and according to ESS the gain for a VT1-535 is 29.2% (414 to 535 crank). My average of my 3 dyno before the supercharger were 340.5whp. So with a 29.2% gain it should put me in the 440whp range.

    After I installed the supercharger I did three dyno runs and the car put down 440-447whp.

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    You don't even know, i used to battle with ESS years ago! Im talking 4-5 years ago about the same stuff, their dyno's were always very shady to me.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 808E90 Click here to enlarge
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    Every company out in the market will say or show graphs with higher numbers then what they are really putting down. That is a known fact. It’s like boys telling girls that they got a 12 inch dick when they don’t!!

    I’m running the ESS VT1 kit on my car and according to ESS the gain for a VT1-535 is 29.2% (414 to 535 crank). My average of my 3 dyno before the supercharger were 340.5whp. So with a 29.2% gain it should put me in the 440whp range.

    After I installed the supercharger I did three dyno runs and the car put down 440-447whp.
    Of course you are going to post positive info about ESS, you have their kit. Over the last couple years they have been the company that shows dyno's with almost no proof at all. Now we see them posting the same dyno chart for a S54 and E92 M3... How can anyone add anything positive to that? That is just dirty business tactics.

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    Sticky,

    Did you ever get any sort of response to your email? Sounds to me like they rather not get into a public debate but they atleast answer you?

    Its shocking that a company that considers itself a front-runner for the BMW community would even try to pull something off like this... its beyond me how they would think that no one would catch on.

    Amazing.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TaZaM3 Click here to enlarge
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    Of course you are going to post positive info about ESS, you have their kit. Over the last couple years they have been the company that shows dyno's with almost no proof at all. Now we see them posting the same dyno chart for a S54 and E92 M3... How can anyone add anything positive to that? That is just dirty business tactics.
    I just wrote that my dyno chart were dead on with the gain that ESS claims it would make ...

    You are right ... If I was going to write something about the product then yes, it would be positive!! They made a kit that I could bolt up myself here in Hawaii. I didn't have to ship my car or do any modifications. Tell me you wouldn't write something positive about a product that you were running that you liked.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 808E90 Click here to enlarge
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    Every company out in the market will say or show graphs with higher numbers then what they are really putting down. That is a known fact. Itís like boys telling girls that they got a 12 inch dick when they donít!!

    Iím running the ESS VT1 kit on my car and according to ESS the gain for a VT1-535 is 29.2% (414 to 535 crank). My average of my 3 dyno before the supercharger were 340.5whp. So with a 29.2% gain it should put me in the 440whp range.

    After I installed the supercharger I did three dyno runs and the car put down 440-447whp.
    I disagree Gintani hasn't done that. Basically every independent dyno a Gintani customer has ever done they have made more power then Gintani claimed or made on the Gintani inhouse dyno. Click here to enlarge

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    This post is epic. lol I'd like to hear the explanation of this.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JonMartin Click here to enlarge
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    I disagree Gintani hasn't done that. Basically every independent dyno a Gintani customer has ever done they have made more power then Gintani claimed or made on the Gintani inhouse dyno. Click here to enlarge
    I don't wanna take this thread off topic nor make this into a ESS vs Gintani ...

    Your post is true don't get me wrong but when I first looked into a supercharger kit for my car I looked at Gintani too. I don't recall seeing a dyno charts from Gintani that advertised their kit. I only found independent dyno charts at that time. You can't really compare independent dyno charts to another independent dyno charts and say it made more then what they claimed.

    ... This still doesn't change the fact the ESS may have used the same dyno chart for two different kits.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 808E90 Click here to enlarge
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    Every company out in the market will say or show graphs with higher numbers then what they are really putting down. That is a known fact. It’s like boys telling girls that they got a 12 inch dick when they don’t!!

    I’m running the ESS VT1 kit on my car and according to ESS the gain for a VT1-535 is 29.2% (414 to 535 crank). My average of my 3 dyno before the supercharger were 340.5whp. So with a 29.2% gain it should put me in the 440whp range.

    After I installed the supercharger I did three dyno runs and the car put down 440-447whp.
    You are quite correct, I just think companies have a responsibility to portray information accurately to potential customers.

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Good information Sticky, thanks for posting this up! I've been wanting to hear what they have to say...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 808E90 Click here to enlarge
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    I just wrote that my dyno chart were dead on with the gain that ESS claims it would make ...

    You are right ... If I was going to write something about the product then yes, it would be positive!! They made a kit that I could bolt up myself here in Hawaii. I didn't have to ship my car or do any modifications. Tell me you wouldn't write something positive about a product that you were running that you liked.

    You're right, i just didnt look at it in your way. I could never deal with a company that was pulling stuff like this. Thats why i never bought from ESS or VF.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JonMartin Click here to enlarge
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    I disagree Gintani hasn't done that. Basically every independent dyno a Gintani customer has ever done they have made more power then Gintani claimed or made on the Gintani inhouse dyno. Click here to enlarge
    Agreed. My S54 AA supercharged made 503whp they never claimed that dyno, they always claimed low numbers as well. Not to mention using the same dyno graph for 2 completely different engines as marketing.

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    What is up with forced induction on the e92 m3?

    Active Autoworke - Years in the making/developing, still only a simple teaser photo that shows the intake manifold and dual blow off valves.
    VF Engineering - Wasn't a reliable company to begin with (e46 FI Nightmare) and still nothing available.
    HPF - Not even attempting a turbo kit.
    G-Power - Both US bound motors blown, but besides those two instances seems like a very reliable company making pretty good power. Oh wait, the price is outrageous.
    ESS - Relatively good prices, moderate power, good customer service, false advertising.
    Gintani - Nothing but reliable monsters at prices lower than all of the competition. Not to mention better power and great customer service. [also is based near LA; where the market for e92 tuning is thriving.]

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by CookieCrisp Click here to enlarge
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    What is up with forced induction on the e92 m3?

    Active Autoworke - Years in the making/developing, still only a simple teaser photo that shows the intake manifold and dual blow off valves.
    VF Engineering - Wasn't a reliable company to begin with (e46 FI Nightmare) and still nothing available.
    HPF - Not even attempting a turbo kit.
    G-Power - Both US bound motors blown, but besides those two instances seems like a very reliable company making pretty good power. Oh wait, the price is outrageous.
    ESS - Relatively good prices, moderate power, good customer service, false advertising.
    Gintani - Nothing but reliable monsters at prices lower than all of the competition. Not to mention better power and great customer service. [also is based near LA; where the market for e92 tuning is thriving.]
    Gintani's prices are not lower, ESS actually offers a more affordable kit for their base models.

    G-power is repairing their reputation and we will see how it goes.

    VF - They are still testing.

    HPF - nope, nothing.

    Active - They will get to market before VF and should be out in not too long. We had Omar post some updates here.

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    ESS refuses to respond here.

    Their only response so far has been going off the topic and mentioning other things about their kits like how happy their customers are as if this has anything to do with it.

    They actually said their numbers are conservative, Huh? No customer has hit numbers independently that they have, do they know the definition of conservative?

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    ESS stated they will send me their dyno run files today, we will see if it happens.

    ESS complained to the staff on E46fanatics to get me to stop posting on the topic of their misleading dynos. They actually locked me out of the forced induction section Click here to enlarge

    Nothing to hide, eh?

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    ^
    Ofcourse that is expected on a forum where the admins kiss the vendors' ass.

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    That reaks just like the RPI exhaust\ESS tune thread. I don't trust any of those guys. http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...ht=rpi+exhaust

    I takled to Roman @ MFest and he seemed cool, but then some other dude had an issue with him shortly after. http://www.mfestforum.com/forum/show...+flashed+mfest

    I don't care for either company.
    -Eric

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by HondaGoneRogue Click here to enlarge
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    I takled to Roman @ MFest and he seemed cool, but then some other dude had an issue with him shortly after. http://www.mfestforum.com/forum/show...+flashed+mfest

    I don't care for either company.
    Whoa, thanks for this link. What the hell? Saying the car will blow from running the Powerchip tune?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by CookieCrisp Click here to enlarge
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    What is up with forced induction on the e92 m3?

    Active Autoworke - Years in the making/developing, still only a simple teaser photo that shows the intake manifold and dual blow off valves.
    VF Engineering - Wasn't a reliable company to begin with (e46 FI Nightmare) and still nothing available.
    HPF - Not even attempting a turbo kit.
    G-Power - Both US bound motors blown, but besides those two instances seems like a very reliable company making pretty good power. Oh wait, the price is outrageous.
    ESS - Relatively good prices, moderate power, good customer service, false advertising.
    Gintani - Nothing but reliable monsters at prices lower than all of the competition. Not to mention better power and great customer service. [also is based near LA; where the market for e92 tuning is thriving.]
    Very well said brotha! Pin point accurate!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by HondaGoneRogue Click here to enlarge
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    That reaks just like the RPI exhaust\ESS tune thread. I don't trust any of those guys. http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...ht=rpi+exhaust

    I takled to Roman @ MFest and he seemed cool, but then some other dude had an issue with him shortly after. http://www.mfestforum.com/forum/show...+flashed+mfest

    I don't care for either company.
    wow...just goes to show you, you cant trust either company.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    Whoa, thanks for this link. What the hell? Saying the car will blow from running the Powerchip tune?
    thats not the first they said that lol i remember they kept saying the PC tune is dangerous on m3post.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shahsk Click here to enlarge
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    wow...just goes to show you, you cant trust either company.



    thats not the first they said that lol i remember they kept saying the PC tune is dangerous on m3post.
    For the record, RPI has always taken great care of me and even helped me when they did not have to. Eloy (owner of RPI) is a good person and runs a good company that takes care of its customers.

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    ESS just sent me their dynographs, going to look them over, there is a bunch.

    They could not help taking some shots at my manifold and implying my kit does not make as much power as theirs though Click here to enlarge I couldn't help but mention my trap speed disagrees.

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