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    • Volkswagen's diesel black hole sucks in BMW, Audi, and Bosch - Cost cutting of $335 per vehicle responsible for illegal software decision

      The heads continue to roll at VW with R&D chiefs at Volkswagen, Audi, and Porsche joining the recently deposed CEO. Their names respectively are Heinz-Jakob Neusser, Ulrich Hackenberg, and Wolfgang Hatz. They all formerly served at Volkswagen and all are big names who are being forced out over the Volkswagen diesel scandal.


      More details continue to emerge as to why Volkswagen did what it did by using an ECU 'cheat code' so to speak to beat US emissions tests. The reason is that it would have cost Volkswagen $335 per vehicle to refit the cars with an AdBlue Urea injection system to clean their emissions. Volkswagen chose the software approach to save money instead.

      That is what brings Bosch into the picture as Bosch supplies the engine management systems that Volkswagen used to skirt the tests. Bosch of course claims they only supplied these systems that could be programmed to beat the EPA for testing purposes. They also claim they warned Volkswagen not to use software that could beat tests. Nobody at Bosch knew what software Volkswagen was using for years? Sounds like Bosch is already in protect their own behinds mode as they supplied the software VW needed to beat the tests.

      Cost cutting is the cause of this whole mess. $335 times roughly 500,000 affected US cars is $167,000,000. That is not chump change but it sure beats losing billions upon billions. There will be those who point out this software is in 12+ million cars worldwide but again not all countries have the same emissions standards so not all cars would require the AdBlue Urea system. Even if they did we are talking about roughly three billion dollars. Still six times less than what was wiped out from VW's stock in one day. Greed is certainly to blame here.

      Now what about the other German brands? Audi uses many of the same motors with the same software so they are pretty much screwed too but we all already knew that when Volkswagen itself was caught. Now we see how Mercedes, BMW, and suppliers such as Bosch make it out of this.

      German magazine Autobild says the BMW X3 xDrive 20d emits more than the legal amount of pollutants in Germany. Autobild's own test is not the same as a test by a government agency and BMW quickly denied Autobild's report. BMW's stock price still took a 10% hit based on the report.

      Quote Originally Posted by BMW
      The BMW Group does not manipulate or rig any emissions tests. We observe the legal requirements in each country.
      There is currently no proof BMW did anything wrong but BMW's stock continues to tumble. You can see how Volkswagen has the entire German automotive industry in turmoil right now.

      It does not end here. BMW diesels will be scrutinized by government agencies worldwide as will Mercedes. The extent of the role Bosch played has yet to be determined. Volkswagen also needs to make the cars compliant so whether they wanted a hardware solution or not they will now have to shell out for it at a much greater cost.

      This is nowhere near over.

      This article was originally published in forum thread: Volkswagen's diesel black hole sucks in BMW, Audi, and Bosch - Cost cutting of $335 per vehicle responsible for illegal software decision started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 39 Comments
      1. richpike's Avatar
        richpike -
        Autobild might as well be the National Enquirer. Their article was BS - comparing apples and oranges and just trying to capitalize on the drama. I hope BMW sues them. You can't claim something emits more than the legal amount when the test was done completely differently from what the law requires.

        -Rich
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by richpike Click here to enlarge
        Their article was BS - comparing apples and oranges and just trying to capitalize on the drama.
        That's exactly what they were trying to do. They wanted to sell some more magazines yet they wiped out how much of BMW's stock? Hope they enjoyed those extra few sales.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by richpike Click here to enlarge
        I hope BMW sues them. You can't claim something emits more than the legal amount when the test was done completely differently from what the law requires.
        I'm with you.
      1. richpike's Avatar
        richpike -
        Holy $#@! - check out this article:

        http://www.drivingthenation.com/lou-...ng-the-nation/

        If this is true, I would be one furious TDI owner. I figured you could just ignore the recall if you didn't want VW touching your car, but according to CARB they'll block you from registering your car if you don't have the recall done. Damn.

        -Rich
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by richpike Click here to enlarge
        Holy $#@! - check out this article:

        http://www.drivingthenation.com/lou-...ng-the-nation/

        If this is true, I would be one furious TDI owner. I figured you could just ignore the recall if you didn't want VW touching your car, but according to CARB they'll block you from registering your car if you don't have the recall done. Damn.

        -Rich
        It makes sense you can't ignore an emissions recall but it doesn't make sense that CARB has the power to block you from registering your car.

        I'm surprised CARB isn't running the world already.
      1. Alpina_B3_Lux's Avatar
        Alpina_B3_Lux -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by richpike Click here to enlarge
        Autobild might as well be the National Enquirer. Their article was BS - comparing apples and oranges and just trying to capitalize on the drama. I hope BMW sues them. You can't claim something emits more than the legal amount when the test was done completely differently from what the law requires.

        -Rich
        Absolutely, it's at the bottom end of trash rags in Germany.

        It would be interesting to make an investigation into whether anyone at Autobild shortened BMW stock before the article appeared. You could make a lot of money with this kind of easy manipulation.
      1. Tony@VargasTurboTech's Avatar
        Tony@VargasTurboTech -
        Car manufactures will use any method to save money, and get over on emissions laws? In other news professional athletes use PEDs, the sky is blue, and water is wet. Moving on.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Tony@VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
        Car manufactures will use any method to save money, and get over on emissions laws? In other news professional athletes use PEDs, the sky is blue, and water is wet. Moving on.
        Yeah but environmental laws and PED's that have no impact on the environment or future generations when someone ingests them are different things.

        This is a bit bigger than just cost cutting.
      1. Tony@VargasTurboTech's Avatar
        Tony@VargasTurboTech -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Yeah but environmental laws and PED's that have no impact on the environment or future generations when someone ingests them are different things.

        This is a bit bigger than just cost cutting.
        First off a diesel is cleaner than any gasoline engine hybrids excluded. So even a dirty diesel is doing less or the same polluting as a gasoline. People think diesels are dirty because the older diesels are known for lots of black smoke etc. Things have changed, the diesel industry is ruled by politics as the entire world runs on diesel. I have no problem with VW trying to get around outrageous emissions laws, on motors that are cleaner than their gasoline counterparts, but face stricter laws.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Tony@VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
        First off a diesel is cleaner than any gasoline engine hybrids excluded.
        Um no it isn't.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Tony@VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
        I have no problem with VW trying to get around outrageous emissions laws, on motors that are cleaner than their gasoline counterparts, but face stricter laws.
        Diesels have some a long way but if diesels were so much cleaner why can't the Europeans get them into the US? The standards are tighter here.

        I think you're very wrong on the diesels being cleaner argument and also not understanding that Volkswagen polluted 40 times more than the allowable amount. I highly doubt any gasoline motor can say the same.

        Also, I agree that some of these emissions laws are ridiculous and that CARB seems to have its head up its power hungry $#@! but this is not like PED's or trying to get an edge in competition. It is environmental regulation. That impacts people as a whole not just the performance of an athlete in some game.
      1. Tony@VargasTurboTech's Avatar
        Tony@VargasTurboTech -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Um no it isn't.



        Diesels have some a long way but if diesels were so much cleaner why can't the Europeans get them into the US? The standards are tighter here.

        I think you're very wrong on the diesels being cleaner argument and also not understanding that Volkswagen polluted 40 times more than the allowable amount. I highly doubt any gasoline motor can say the same.

        Also, I agree that some of these emissions laws are ridiculous and that CARB seems to have its head up its power hungry $#@! but this is not like PED's or trying to get an edge in competition. It is environmental regulation. That impacts people as a whole not just the performance of an athlete in some game.
        Obviously you are as misinformed as the general public. Do a little research, and get back to us. Know it all Sticky strikes again, just because you think a fact is wrong, means you are ill informed, nothing more.

        One article of hundreds I could post.

        http://www.maryngroup.com/component/...worse-than-gas
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Tony@VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
        Obviously you are as misinformed as the general public. Do a little research, and get back to us. Know it all Sticky strikes again, just because you think a fact is wrong, means you are ill informed, nothing more.

        One article of hundreds I could post.

        http://www.maryngroup.com/component/...worse-than-gas
        I really don't think I come off sounding like the know it all here.

        I don't think you read that article though. It doesn't say diesels are cleaner. It says diesels have gotten to be as clean as 'average' gasoline motors:

        diesel engines run cleaner than the average gasoline car and consume significantly less oil
        The cleanest gasoline motors are still cleaner. As they have been. And diesels do pollute more as VW struggled to gets diesels compliant not its gasoline engines, right?

        That article is also from a PR group pushing diesels. They provided no emissions information in their article they just stated their opinion as fact.

        While diesels have gotten much better than their past reputation you still need things like the Urea injection systems to even approach average gasoline motors. It's just a fact, sorry. Even software manipulation can't hide it.
      1. Tony@VargasTurboTech's Avatar
        Tony@VargasTurboTech -
        http://www.autonews.com/article/2014...rty-reputation

        "WASHINGTON -- When it comes to fuel economy and tailpipe emissions, today's diesel vehicles are as eco-friendly as their gasoline-fueled counterparts, and often more so."

        Should we start talking about the pollution saved in the refinement process as well? Nah, why worry about that, small detail.

        http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/bra...ernative-fuel/

        The refining process is also a win for diesel because it requires less refinement — and thus, less expended energy — than gasoline. During the refinement process, the object is to reduce the amount of sulfur as much as possible — up to 97 percent less sulfur than diesel fuel that existed before 2006. Since 2006, all 50 states require the use of ultra-low-sulfur diesel (ULSD). The complete line of Audi TDIŽ clean diesels — the A6 and A7 sedans, the Q5 crossover and Q7 SUV and the luxurious A8 L flagship — are all powered by this fuel.
        The entire point of ULSD is that it allows much more sophisticated emissions control technologies to assist clean diesel exhaust, to help eliminate what many people remember about diesel in the early days: soot.
        Today, diesel starts cleaner, and it ends cleaner, too. The reason is that Audi utilizes technologies such as close-coupled oxidation catalysts, coated particle filters and active gas after-treatment systems to detect soot levels and emissions in the exhaust and help trap them before they ever leave the exhaust pipe.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        So you're posting things stating as equal as gasoline? That went from being cleaner to managing a close average pretty quickly.

        Diesel fuel is heavier and oilier:

        Diesel fuel is the main fuel used for transporting goods across the United States. Diesel fuel is heavier and oilier than gasoline
        Once again, if diesel is so clean why can't they get over here? Why can't Volkswagen easily meet emissions requirements? Oh, that's because they aren't cleaner:

        Consumers may think that because of the improved fuel efficiency a diesel provides, it's a better choice for the environment. That's not entirely true: diesel vehicles produce dirty emissions, and our nation's more strict emissions regulations are among the reasons the vehicles aren't as common in the U.S. as they are in Europe. While today's diesel cars are much cleaner than in decades past, some of the emissions include carcinogens, soot, and nitrous oxide -- if you drive significantly more miles in the city and believe in taking care of the environment, a diesel may not be for you.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        We can keep going:

        While diesel fuel generally produces more energy or miles per gallon than gasoline, it also has a much higher carbon content. In fact, diesel fuel produces approximately 13 percent more CO2 gas per gallon of fuel burned, compared to gas engines.

        In Environmental Protection Agency tests measuring how much air pollution a particular make and model vehicle produces, hybrid gasoline-based vehicles scored much higher than clean diesel vehicles. In recent years, Honda Civic hybrid vehicles have scored an average of 9, while diesel Jetta cars have averaged scores of between 5 and 6. For the purpose of these tests, 1 is the lowest score and 10 is the highest. Higher scores are awarded to vehicles that cause less air pollution.
      1. subaru335i's Avatar
        subaru335i -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Tony@VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
        Obviously you are as misinformed as the general public. Do a little research, and get back to us. Know it all Sticky strikes again, just because you think a fact is wrong, means you are ill informed, nothing more.

        One article of hundreds I could post.

        http://www.maryngroup.com/component/...worse-than-gas
        I think the disconnect comes from the many different components to "emissions" of gas and diesel engines. If a source doesn't list all of the components and only cherry picks only CO2 emissions or something like that then yeah maybe you can make outrageous claims and be telling the "truth" but not the whole truth.
        Just because diesels are not putting out huge black smoke as much anymore doesn't mean they are cleaner than gas in each category. Specifically NOx which causes acid rain and smog and is much much much higher in diesels than gas.
        Also, your argument that he entire point of "ULSD is that it allows much more sophisticated emissions control technologies to assist clean diesel exhaust, to help eliminate what many people remember about diesel in the early days: soot." goes out the window when those sophisticated emissions control technologies are being turned off for normal driving. That is the whole entire point of this scandal.
        Yes modern diesels CAN be as good or better than gas engines but only when ALL OF THEIR EMISSIONS CONTROLS ARE FUNCTIONAL.

      1. subaru335i's Avatar
        subaru335i -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Diesels have some a long way but if diesels were so much cleaner why can't the Europeans get them into the US? The standards are tighter here.

        I think you're very wrong on the diesels being cleaner argument and also not understanding that Volkswagen polluted 40 times more than the allowable amount. I highly doubt any gasoline motor can say the same.

        Also, I agree that some of these emissions laws are ridiculous and that CARB seems to have its head up its power hungry $#@! but this is not like PED's or trying to get an edge in competition. It is environmental regulation. That impacts people as a whole not just the performance of an athlete in some game.
        Exactly. A similar argument could be said about crash safety standards. If a manufacturer intentionally engineered their car to save cost so much that it was no longer "safe" it would be a huge problem. You could argue that there are people who are driving around in old rusty beaters without seatbelts that are way less safe than this modern car that is cheating the safety standards but the point is when someone buys a new car they are doing so under the assumption that they have a safe and clean car and cheating the regulations is just plain wrong and should be punished.
        We don't live in China and health and safety standards exist for the greater good whether you like them or not.
      1. crazylegs's Avatar
        crazylegs -
        well in the long run i think this will be beneficial to BMW and Mercedes. VW is little by little burning and burning. BMW and Merc stock is dropping but thats only going to be for a little while until this mess starts being cleared up. if anything it makes there stock more attractive and then there stock and sales should start climbing steadily and probably grow much quicker shortly there after since VW has lost credibility
      1. SVP03's Avatar
        SVP03 -
        How can it be that the NOx max is 31 mg/km in USA for small cars when it is i dont know how many times more for the pick up.
        That what we call protection of the American dream over here. Click here to enlarge
      1. PLF's Avatar
        PLF -
        I don't think they did it ''only'' for cost cutting, selling the idea to ppl they have to fill an ''urea'' tank every 10-15k miles is a challenge on its own when your dealling with clients trying to save every penny on a golf, jetta etc.

        Much easier to sell the concept to the buyer of Mercedes GLK250 that with options will go way over 40k than the little lady that asks if she can have a credit for deleting electric windows.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SVP03 Click here to enlarge
        How can it be that the NOx max is 31 mg/km in USA for small cars when it is i dont know how many times more for the pick up.
        That what we call protection of the American dream over here. Click here to enlarge
        It's for sure a bull$#@! rule how the domestics can pollute way more but it is the rule.