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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No

    Thumbs down ESS vs Powerchip going head to head.

    I had to laugh at this thread when I read it on the other forum.

    I would respond but since I'm banned for not being an ESS fan boy I can't. Oh well I do find it funny how PencilGeek steps in to make the rules and tries to determine whats a valid test and what isn't

    http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=350856

    Look at his first response. Please someone help me understand wtf is so bad about a custom tune that it's invalid or "meaningless" and why it shouldn't be included in the test. Imo all the test should be done same day, same conditions, same machine and same cars but the two companies should be allowed to tune to the BEST of their ability. If one company can't get more power out of a custom tune then the other companies off the shelf tune oh well then thats too damn bad thanks for playing. I don't think they should be limited to what they can't bring to the table I say " run what ya brung " and of course they should be compared with the AFR's and other parameters to ensure safety. But we know whats gonna happen a dissagreement in what makes a safe tune and what makes an unsafe tune lol. Either way I think its a fun idea minus the restriction. Whats ur thoughts folks?

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    I have a ton to say about this topic but I will get to it later as I need to go make some videos right now.

    There is a reason why PencilGeek is protecting ESS, we all know what it is. That forum's moderation has been bought. Personally, I'm glad, as people will begin to see the problem. Huge conflict of interest going on...

    I'll be posting up a lot of good info later today.

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    that thread makes me laugh
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by tag824 Click here to enlarge
    guess i lost all my rep's... later bro's

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    So glad this forum exists. No banning for bull$#@!. Thanks Sticky.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by boom Click here to enlarge
    So glad this forum exists. No banning for bull$#@!. Thanks Sticky.
    No problem, my pleasure. Just wait until I rip into that thread. Busy uploading youtube vids at the moment...

    This forum exists precisely because of biased nonsense like that thread where no one will get the truth. Why do people turn a blind eye and accept it? No one questions it?

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    Please do I might start another "troll" account and make an intro also because of PG's latest post about how the two should play by "his rules" (gimme a break). And besides ensuring the safety of the tune thru AFR's and such I think other values don't need to be disclosed to the public or even the other tuner, Why so other companies can learn what to change? Hasn't ESS been known to borrow tunes from other people cars for years? Now all of a sudden their puppet (Pencil Geek) wants their competition to disclose trade secrets so ESS can learn how to make an N/A tune that makes power worth talking about? And not only that but submit the tune via USB LOL ya dude Powerchip is really gonna hand over their tune to ESS good luck with that!.

    I find it funny that ESS tuned Pencil Geeks car originally and he was unhappy about it and said it had lost power but now all of a sudden they learned how to tune the stroker in a week? give me a break. At best whatever minor issues Pencilgeek had with his stroker tune might have been adjusted to the right values which could have been done by the original tuner in the first place had he asked but instead he probably chose to get a free supercharger kit in exchange for a few tweaks to his tune he already had and make ESS look all great all of a sudden. The ESS fanboys truley are blind and totally clueless about what really goes on. Not to mention Le Mans Blue M's false "insider" knowledge they all feed off of.

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    PencilGeek thinks he is an authority for some reason even though he is in bed with ESS and has proven time and time again to not even understand the basic performance terms. It is a joke really, but what can you do? They want to run a circus, let them.

    I like how he is talking about organizing some kind of shootout, I'll get that done next week and post the results. I'll go to RPI for ESS And Gintani for Powerchip. Have any idea what cars could be used? Mind using yours? ESS has already downloaded powerchip's tune man... PG is ranting and raving about ESS because he is getting hooked up! His car ran slower 60-130 with the ESS tune... wow, awesome Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    PencilGeek thinks he is an authority for some reason even though he is in bed with ESS and has proven time and time again to not even understand the basic performance terms. It is a joke really, but what can you do? They want to run a circus, let them.

    I like how he is talking about organizing some kind of shootout, I'll get that done next week and post the results. I'll go to RPI for ESS And Gintani for Powerchip. Have any idea what cars could be used? Mind using yours? ESS has already downloaded powerchip's tune man... PG is ranting and raving about ESS because he is getting hooked up! His car ran slower 60-130 with the ESS tune... wow, awesome Click here to enlarge
    LOL at his car being slower 60-130mph I'd be down to use my car but I dont have it anymore. I still want to see what will happens though I may get another M3 or not we'll see

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    Taken from the thread on BSpost:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PencilGeek
    This is an interesting idea. Here's how I think it should work.
    Want to know how I think it should work? A moderator in bed with ESS should not be dictating the rules. That, or step down, and then give your suggestions as it is a conflict of interest.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PencilGeek
    No custom tuning involved. Only a single, off-the-shelf tune would be allowed (not multiple tunes).
    Well, after that, please stop suggesting things. Not all cars are the same and the best tune is going to be the tune that is tuned around the car. This is also what shows the tuners skills. No custom tuning? Ridiculous, absolutely terrible suggestion.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Rom3n
    AJ said it would be fine if Mike wants to run a "custom" tune, stage 1, stage 2 or whatever. We will run our standard tune. The test needs to be done on a Mustang, MAHA or any high load dyno so that it wont respond to overly agressive timing targets or leaned out AFR's. Dyno conditions need to be similar to road conditions. All testing done same day with spectators. For fun we can take each tune out and test them 60-130 with a V-BOX.
    I'm setting this up for next week. I'll buy your tune and do it myself if I have to.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PencilGeek
    Oh SNAP! Custom tune against standard tune! Agreed, it needs to be done on a high load dyno. You might also want to consider the Dynapack dyno and follow my dyno procedures if all cars are 6MT.
    Follow your procedures? The guy who dynos without knowing the impact the weight of his wheels provides and says that is the way to do it? No, we are not following any of your "procedures" you act like you have a successful established track record. You are the guy who is now on his 3rd custom tune because you haven't done it right from the beginning, I think we should avoid your dyno suggestions.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PencilGeek
    ]I don't see a scenario that PC could back down without being accused of creating dangerous tunes that they don't want exposed to the public via ECU data logging. When Mike made the challenge, certainly he knew that I would recommend using independant test vehicles, scientifically valid procedures, having the ECU data logged during the tests, and to publish all of the results. So I just don't envision a face-saving scenario where PC could possibly back down.
    Um, Sammy did not say Powerchip would back down, that is what you just said to make it appear as it would be Powerchip who would run away and not ESS. If this does not happen for any reason, it will be because of ESS, not Powerchip, I'm calling that now.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PencilGeek
    ]Instead, I'd like to see them play by my rules. I think I can come up with a tougher test than either would come up with individually. That's why I proposed complete ECU data logging (for starters).
    Uh, Pencil, you are the guy who said ESS is so great but your car is running a half second slower 60-130 after making the ESS switch. You are not an authority when you get these kinds of results. Go post some more pie charts and graphs about what you haven't done.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PencilGeek
    'll donate my Bavarian Technic ECU data logger to the challenge
    Vintage PG, adding some stupid stipulation to get a chance to mention he has some toy. Surprised he did not bring up some rule involving his Video VBOX which I'm sure he would donate as well.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PencilGeek
    ECU tune will be submitted on a USB flash drive and given to the dyno operator or comparable 3rd party
    Oh, yes, and lets just upload it onto the internet for everyone to get and dissect. Are you crazy? What planet do you live on?

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    I'm organizing a shootout for next week with Powerchip and ESS. Dyno time has been reserved. I am going to get GIAC involved as well hopefully, I'm sure Drew can help with that.

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    Powerchip vs Pencilgeek (ESS)

    Firstpost: Hi everyone


    To be honest with you guys, I'm so sick of these flamewars online and to battle with someone like Robert (PencilGeek) would be an endless endeavor and a waste of everyone's time.

    He's being spoonfed by ESS since they are giving him a blower for his "unbiased" opinion on the forums.

    Mike B
    Last edited by Mike Benvo; 02-13-2010 at 05:03 AM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mike Benvo Click here to enlarge
    Firstpost: Hi everyone


    To be honest with you guys, I'm so sick of these flamewars online and to battle with someone like Robert (PencilGeek) would be an endless endeavor and a waste of everyone's time.

    He's being spoonfed by ESS since they are giving him a blower for his "unbiased" opinion on the forums.

    Mike B
    Agreed! Its really that simple.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mike Benvo Click here to enlarge
    Firstpost: Hi everyone


    To be honest with you guys, I'm so sick of these flamewars online and to battle with someone like Robert (PencilGeek) would be an endless endeavor and a waste of everyone's time.

    He's being spoonfed by ESS since they are giving him a blower for his "unbiased" opinion on the forums.

    Mike B
    Exactly, glad you see it. Man, I thought everyone on m3post was blind.

    I am going to organize a shootout though. I'm not running either tune so I could care less who wins but it will be valuable info.

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    I'm confused or did I miss something, who appointed Robert the leader of this potential shootout? Shouldn't ESS and PC determine what the rules are, as well as the location, etc.? Robert should step back and let the two players determine all the particulars, IMHO comparing dyno's is a bit meaningless, the 60-130 runs would be more telling, that might be hard to orgranize, but nothing wrong with having a fun dyno shootout.
    08 E92 M3 - DCT
    Bolt Ons - Best ET 11.88 Best Trap Speed 119.8 MPH
    60-130 MPH (3 shifts) 10.71s
    Gintani Stage 2+ Supercharger 60-130MPH (3 shifts) 7.06s
    11.45 @ 131.6 MPH
    579WHP @9.3psi

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DLSJ5 Click here to enlarge
    I'm confused or did I miss something, who appointed Robert the leader of this potential shootout? Shouldn't ESS and PC determine what the rules are, as well as the location, etc.? Robert should step back and let the two players determine all the particulars, IMHO comparing dyno's is a bit meaningless, the 60-130 runs would be more telling, that might be hard to orgranize, but nothing wrong with having a fun dyno shootout.
    Yes, ESS and PC should. However, ESS will do what Robert says to maintain their privileged position and vice versa.

    Robert appointed himself and butted in like he always does. The 60-130's would be best but how do you explain that to someone who thinks their new tune is better when it is running slower?

    It can be organized Drew, we have two major dealers for the software close to us. GIAC is the wildcard.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Yes, ESS and PC should. However, ESS will do what Robert says to maintain their privileged position and vice versa.

    Robert appointed himself and butted in like he always does. The 60-130's would be best but how do you explain that to someone who thinks their new tune is better when it is running slower?

    It can be organized Drew, we have two major dealers for the software close to us. GIAC is the wildcard.
    It would be fun and regardless of what some will bicker about, the info would there for people to come to their own conclusions.
    08 E92 M3 - DCT
    Bolt Ons - Best ET 11.88 Best Trap Speed 119.8 MPH
    60-130 MPH (3 shifts) 10.71s
    Gintani Stage 2+ Supercharger 60-130MPH (3 shifts) 7.06s
    11.45 @ 131.6 MPH
    579WHP @9.3psi

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DLSJ5 Click here to enlarge
    It would be fun and regardless of what some will bicker about, the info would there for people to come to their own conclusions.
    Exactly.

    Do you think it is cool if ESS and PC do it without PencilGeek's blessing Click here to enlarge Maybe he needs to pick what color the car should be as well?

    I also don't understand this stuff about going to Arizona... it makes no sense to me.

    Does not matter, whatever methods are used they will be posted and I believe people are intelligent enough to decide the rest on their own. What may be the winner for one person may not be the winner for another, there are differences for different enthusiasts who may have different requirements.

    I do find it funny that PG left ESS only to go back ($?)... he is going to run out of tuning companies soon.

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    Guys let's try and keep this civil and refrain from name calling. While I disagree at times with PG as well, and in this shootout thread I think he's being a tad unreasonable, he's done some great stuff for that forum and he should be entitled to his opinion without being called names on another forum. Let's try and take the high road here.
    08 E92 M3 - DCT
    Bolt Ons - Best ET 11.88 Best Trap Speed 119.8 MPH
    60-130 MPH (3 shifts) 10.71s
    Gintani Stage 2+ Supercharger 60-130MPH (3 shifts) 7.06s
    11.45 @ 131.6 MPH
    579WHP @9.3psi

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Exactly.

    Do you think it is cool if ESS and PC do it without PencilGeek's blessing Click here to enlarge Maybe he needs to pick what color the car should be as well?

    I also don't understand this stuff about going to Arizona... it makes no sense to me.

    Does not matter, whatever methods are used they will be posted and I believe people are intelligent enough to decide the rest on their own. What may be the winner for one person may not be the winner for another, there are differences for different enthusiasts who may have different requirements.

    I do find it funny that PG left ESS only to go back ($?)... he is going to run out of tuning companies soon.
    I agree with that, regardless of what other forums or people may think, you make a lot of sense at times, hehe, but I'm sure he went to ESS as well because he thought they could do what he needed. I like ESS Bro, they make great stuff, but I do at times disagree with their dyno claims and their take on other companies, whom they seem to think don't have the ability to do what they can.

    I have nothing personal against Robert, I happen to like him and enjoy talking with him etc. but like you I disagree with him at times, however I don't want to participate in calling him names. So if I see something that is going to far I'm gonna start editing/changing/deleting certain posts, I hope everyone understands.
    Last edited by DLSJ5; 02-13-2010 at 07:46 PM.
    08 E92 M3 - DCT
    Bolt Ons - Best ET 11.88 Best Trap Speed 119.8 MPH
    60-130 MPH (3 shifts) 10.71s
    Gintani Stage 2+ Supercharger 60-130MPH (3 shifts) 7.06s
    11.45 @ 131.6 MPH
    579WHP @9.3psi

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DLSJ5 Click here to enlarge
    I agree with that, regardless of what other forums or people may think, you make a lot of sense at times, hehe, but I'm sure he went to ESS as well because he thought they could do what he needed. I like ESS Bro, they make great stuff, but I do at times disagree with their dyno claims and their take on other companies, whom they seem to think don't have the ability to do what they can.

    I have nothing personal against Robert, I happen to like him and enjoy talking with him etc. but like you I disagree with him at times, however I don't want to participate in calling him names. So if I see something that is going to far I'm gonna start editing/changing/deleting certain posts, I hope everyone understands.
    I make tons of sense! Click here to enlarge

    ESS makes great stuff but something is up with their graphs. Look at the NA graph they posted when you asked for it and the torque dropoff. Then look at their SC graphs and compare them to other SC graphs. Something is not quite right? Plus, what is the deal with all the uncorrected graphs and the lack of third party graphs?

    I like Robert, and yes, just as you said, I disagree with him just pretty frequently Click here to enlarge Drew, if you edit, PM that person that you edited. I don't want posts disappearing without any explanation, we can definitely take at least that step to show courtesy to our members.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I make tons of sense! Click here to enlarge

    ESS makes great stuff but something is up with their graphs. Look at the NA graph they posted when you asked for it and the torque dropoff. Then look at their SC graphs and compare them to other SC graphs. Something is not quite right? Plus, what is the deal with all the uncorrected graphs and the lack of third party graphs?

    I like Robert, and yes, just as you said, I disagree with him just pretty frequently Click here to enlarge Drew, if you edit, PM that person that you edited. I don't want posts disappearing without any explanation, we can definitely take at least that step to show courtesy to our members.

    I didn't look to closely at the TQ part of the graph, in fact I couldn't read the #'s, but just saw the gains on the graph with the WHP, but I was surprised that there wasn't one already in the Dyno Database, you'd think there would have been one, regardless Roman posted one up props to him, I'll take a look at that TQ graph again. Agreed on the last part of your post.
    08 E92 M3 - DCT
    Bolt Ons - Best ET 11.88 Best Trap Speed 119.8 MPH
    60-130 MPH (3 shifts) 10.71s
    Gintani Stage 2+ Supercharger 60-130MPH (3 shifts) 7.06s
    11.45 @ 131.6 MPH
    579WHP @9.3psi

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    Drew, how can you read that thread without bursting into laughter?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M
    Even if you could overcome all these obstacles, a "custom tune" is actually a less desirable path to take...since our target-based engine management software architecture, will actually allow the engine to work within a larger comfort zone.
    I just... I just... I mean, seriously? A custom tune is less desirable? They can keep him...

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    Mike @ Powerchip is making a huge mistake if he goes to Arizona, huge. Neutral ground, 3rd party dyno, guy is playing it all wrong.

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    I'm not going to Arizona, unless it's for vacation - or unless it's arranged far in advance.

    I think it's better to check in with RPI and do the shootout there. We're certainly not giving ESS any of our files to test. I'm not sure where going to Arizona originated from, and why this has to be so overly complicated on M3 post. Once I have the time to respond to all of the BS that was posted, people will look at LemansM like the ESS shill that he is.

    Sticky: Saw (and heard) your car at Gintani. All I have to say is WOW - the freaking thing sounds and moves like an F1 car. I might find myself going the blower route soon. Great job on the car so far!

    Mike@PC

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Drew, how can you read that thread without bursting into laughter?



    I just... I just... I mean, seriously? A custom tune is less desirable? They can keep him...
    I don't quite get his response Bro, but I don't know how the S65 ECU works, the fact is there are tons of tuned/custom as well, PC E9X M3's out there with happy customers, objectively I can't say I've read one review about ESS NA software, except the DCT option. I do remember that an employee at ESS claimed, and still does, that the GIAC software I ran on my SC'd E46 M3 was actually stock, lol, that's nuts, so the back forth about the competitors tune I take with a grain of salt.
    08 E92 M3 - DCT
    Bolt Ons - Best ET 11.88 Best Trap Speed 119.8 MPH
    60-130 MPH (3 shifts) 10.71s
    Gintani Stage 2+ Supercharger 60-130MPH (3 shifts) 7.06s
    11.45 @ 131.6 MPH
    579WHP @9.3psi

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