Close

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 26 to 48 of 48
  1. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    849
    Rep Points
    176.3
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    2


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mike@MHP Click here to enlarge
    Thanks for that information. I did not know this.

    Yes Evoms is a good builder! Yes they have built the Porsche TT before! So why is the 1300hp one special? When there current build gets the fastest Porsche record, Props!
    Again, Porsche's of this nature have been built by other tuners. Other Porsche models(964, 993, 996, 997) have been built to this level. There is absolutely nothing special about the current build yet!

    I will sign off on this topic until Evoms takes the title of fastest Porsche. Then I shall offer congratulations!
    How about you just stay off this thread, you shouldnt even be here criticizing another company like this...

  2. #27
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    CA and AZ
    Posts
    237
    Rep Points
    148.7
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    2



    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TaZaM3 Click here to enlarge
    How about you just stay off this thread, you shouldnt even be here criticizing another company like this...
    So saying that Evoms is a good builder is somehow criticizing them?

    This thread is not about than anyway. Its about how a team is running above the 263mph mile record in prep for their next race.

  3. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    849
    Rep Points
    176.3
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    2


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mike@MHP Click here to enlarge
    So saying that Evoms is a good builder is somehow criticizing them?

    This thread is not about than anyway. Its about how a team is running above the 263mph mile record in prep for their next race.
    Your right, I thought this was the EVOMS thread which you are on as well. Confused with all the places you are posting at.

    I find it odd you say EVOMS is a good builder but ive read alot about how you think EVOMS is not.

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    CA and AZ
    Posts
    237
    Rep Points
    148.7
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    2



    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TaZaM3 Click here to enlarge
    Your right, I thought this was the EVOMS thread which you are on as well. Confused with all the places you are posting at.

    I find it odd you say EVOMS is a good builder but ive read alot about how you think EVOMS is not.
    Where? I am saying that other tuners have better software than they do. I am also saying that other tuners have also built 1000 hp vehicles. This is nothing new.

  5. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    849
    Rep Points
    176.3
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    2


    Yes Reputation No
    All about the hardware. I'll give credit where it's due, but if you really want to compare software do it on an N/A platform. Same goes for hardware. Boost is the world's greatest band-aid. It overcomes poor cylinder head flow/velocity, tiny cam(s), too much runner length, log manifolds, etc.

    Tuning is tuning, N/A tuning takes more talent/skill/knowledge, it's very simple really not sure what it is you can quite grasp.

    The intent of the OP was to show that EVOMS had the ability to tune high HP cars, well first, they don't tune anything, they don't tune in-house. Second, again as proven by countless others running 2L 4 bangers, with the right turbo anything is possible.

    Another good point would be EVO doesn't build their motors in-house either, this was an outsourced build.

    So when you outsource your building and tuning, what does that make the business in question? A great middle man? I guess that's open to interpretation.

    You don't see GIAC, EVOMS, etc files running in sanctioned racing, just mention their names to a legit race team and they will laugh in your face.
    When a company says all this about another company on its own build project thread its definitely obvious what you think about them. Nobody came on the thread and said they are the best tuner. You guys came on the thread (literally 4th reply) and starting talking about how not-impressive it was. Saying stuff like "I never said it wasn't impressive" or "Noone said EVOMS is a bad tuner" after you say the above is just backtracking at that point.

  6. #31
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    612
    Rep Points
    420.1
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    5


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mike@MHP Click here to enlarge
    Thanks for that information. I did not know this.
    You're welcome. I figured you might not.

    Yes Evoms is a good builder! Yes they have built the Porsche TT before! So why is the 1300hp one special? When there current build gets the fastest Porsche record, Props!
    Again, Porsche's of this nature have been built by other tuners. Other Porsche models(964, 993, 996, 997) have been built to this level. There is absolutely nothing special about the current build yet!

    I will sign off on this topic until Evoms takes the title of fastest Porsche. Then I shall offer congratulations!
    By that same logic, it wouldn't be appropriate to congratulate MHP for their C63 successes, since they haven't taken the title of "fastest Mercedes." To me, that's wrong - I give congratulations and "props" to those who raise the bar for various platforms, whatever they may be. EVOMS already holds the mile record for fastest 996 Turbo, and (I think) fastest 997 Turbo. Bello's 964 narrow-body monster is an awesome machine, no doubt, but we're not really talking about the same thing. Kind of like how an old S600 holds the fastest MB 1/4 mile title (Merc guys don't seem interested in the mile too much, for whatever reason).

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    CA and AZ
    Posts
    237
    Rep Points
    148.7
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    2



    Yes Reputation No
    No Doubt the 1300hp 997 is a good/hard build. And currently our c63 is a good/hard build. I dont believe it is at the awe inspiring level yet. When they get their record and we get our race cams in both projects would be at another level. Which is where everyone is trying to be!

  8. #33
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    612
    Rep Points
    420.1
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    5


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mike@MHP Click here to enlarge
    No Doubt the 1300hp 997 is a good/hard build. And currently our c63 is a good/hard build. I dont believe it is at the awe inspiring level yet. When they get their record and we get our race cams in both projects would be at another level. Which is where everyone is trying to be!
    Mike,

    I'm not sure how much you know about their recent 997 build. To me, it's pretty "awe-inspiring" already - but that's subjective; of course you're welcome to feel differently. Either way, it's a lot more involved than just big snails, high boost and race gas. If you're curious:

    http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...ls-inside.html

  9. #34
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    CA and AZ
    Posts
    237
    Rep Points
    148.7
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    2



    Yes Reputation No
    I asked specifically how this build is any different that their other big power builds and Evoms refused to answer. So at this point I will assume it is very close in nature as to what they have done with their other 997/996 turbo builds. Which has always been my contention, we have seen these types of builds before.

  10. #35
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    612
    Rep Points
    420.1
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    5


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mike@MHP Click here to enlarge
    I asked specifically how this build is any different that their other big power builds and Evoms refused to answer. So at this point I will assume it is very close in nature as to what they have done with their other 997/996 turbo builds. Which has always been my contention, we have seen these types of builds before.
    Maybe they missed your question, but it's not like they've kept this build some big secret. If you're going to assume that it's "very close in nature" to their other builds, I'm going to assume that you didn't visit the link I posted. It's all there.

    This build is the first built 4.0L (bored/stroked from 3.6L) 996/7 Mezger turbo motor that I'm aware of. Did you see the custom CNC'd billet knife-edged crankshaft? The custom pistons and con rods? Custom race cams? Head studs, machined heads with Ti valves, solid lifter conversion, etc etc etc. They threw everything but the kitchen sink at this motor build. If you haven't - visit the link. It's worth any car enthusiast's time for the pictures alone (just skip around and read EVOMS's posts, it goes quickly).

    Put it this way... for an analogous C63 motor build, it'd need to be something like a 7.0L bored/stroked motor with every last piece of trick race-inspired hardware buttoned-up inside. Which, I think will be a great thing if (when) you guys tackle it. The MHP M156 billet cams are impressive - but dropping cams into a mostly-stock motor with tuning and bolt-ons isn't really quite on par with the level of this 997TT build, as you allege. IMHO. Nor should it be... comparing $20-25k worth of mods (cams/headwork, headers, exhaust, tuning - retail guesstimate) vs. what is undoubtedly a six-figure motor build is kind of silly.

  11. #36
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    5
    Rep Points
    12.5
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mike@MHP Click here to enlarge
    I asked specifically how this build is any different that their other big power builds and Evoms refused to answer. So at this point I will assume it is very close in nature as to what they have done with their other 997/996 turbo builds. Which has always been my contention, we have seen these types of builds before.
    Give me a call anytime Michael, I can tell you anything you need to know about this build. If you can't get a hold of me at the shop, call my cell.

    - Edited due to violation of Vendor rules

  12. #37
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    CA and AZ
    Posts
    237
    Rep Points
    148.7
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    2



    Yes Reputation No
    I have been to that thread many times. I also know that they put a lot of time energy and expense into that build, such as the cams and crank and other hardware. What no one has ever told me is what they put into their other hp projects to get the big power. They have done this before, show me how this is different? Results and or comparisons would work.

  13. #38
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    5
    Rep Points
    12.5
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mike@MHP Click here to enlarge
    I have been to that thread many times. I also know that they put a lot of time energy and expense into that build, such as the cams and crank and other hardware. What no one has ever told me is what they put into their other hp projects to get the big power. They have done this before, show me how this is different? Results and or comparisons would work.

    Like I said, call me and we can talk. Honestly, I'm not sure why you have such a strong desire to know what goes into our engine builds. But, if you really need to know, many of our engine R&D and development is openly discussed on 6speed, all you would have to do is a quick search.

    How about the Ford GT, what was your involvement?

  14. #39
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    CA and AZ
    Posts
    237
    Rep Points
    148.7
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    2



    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by redlinewins Click here to enlarge
    Like I said, call me and we can talk. Honestly, I'm not sure why you have such a strong desire to know what goes into our engine builds. But, if you really need to know, many of our engine R&D and development is openly discussed on 6speed, all you would have to do is a quick search.
    My question is what is different between this build and your other high output 996t and 997t builds. I dont want specifics, I am just curious as to why this one is different, harder, and or better than your past builds.

    Are you saying you have never built a car like this 997t before?

  15. #40
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    925
    Rep Points
    591.0
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    6


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by redlinewins Click here to enlarge

    How about the Ford GT, what was your involvement?
    MHP, answer the question. How are you involved? How are you guys connected to Dan Schoneck in this FGT TT project? What did you guys tune in it?

  16. #41
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    CA and AZ
    Posts
    237
    Rep Points
    148.7
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    2



    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GT3 Click here to enlarge
    MHP, answer the question. How are you involved? How are you guys connected to Dan Schoneck in this FGT TT project? What did you guys tune in it?
    We have no involvement in Rays TT Ford GT.

    I was merely spreading some info about this GT running above the mile record in testing.

  17. #42
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    612
    Rep Points
    420.1
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    5


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mike@MHP Click here to enlarge
    My question is what is different between this build and your other high output 996t and 997t builds. I dont want specifics
    What do you want, then? Vague generalities?

    I realize that I am neither an employee, nor customer, of EVOMS - but I answered your question. EVOMS can clarify if I get any of this wrong, but here's what I understand:

    Their prior builds were 3.6 (stock displacement) and 3.8 (bored, stock stroke) builds. AFAIK, this is the first-ever 4.0 Mezger turbo motor build (almost 4.1, actually), which required the engine dimensions be bored and stroked. The CNC'd billet crankshaft is new and different. New obviously equals different, but it also equals harder, because one quickly finds oneself in uncharted territory. Dealing with clearance issues that were nonissues before, getting custom hardware where "off-the-shelf" worked previously, etc. Plus a lot of the other tweaks and tricks being used, which are all incorporated into this singular build. The better, well I guess that's addressed by the output levels - I know of no other 996 or 997 that is making 1300+/1000+ at the wheels. Not even close.

    Stating "well, others have built thousand-whp Porsches" is missing the point... plus, it's discounting the fact that this motor is making well north of 1k.

  18. #43
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    CA and AZ
    Posts
    237
    Rep Points
    148.7
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    2



    Yes Reputation No
    Thank you. The others were bored and this one was bored and stroked. That is what I was curious about.

  19. #44
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    612
    Rep Points
    420.1
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    5


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mike@MHP Click here to enlarge
    Thank you. The others were bored and this one was bored and stroked. That is what I was curious about.
    Welcome. Click here to enlarge

  20. #45
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    OH
    Posts
    1,454
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    edited: already addressed reg. our involvement with this Ford GT.

  21. #46
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    OH
    Posts
    1,454
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
    Maybe they missed your question, but it's not like they've kept this build some big secret. If you're going to assume that it's "very close in nature" to their other builds, I'm going to assume that you didn't visit the link I posted. It's all there.

    This build is the first built 4.0L (bored/stroked from 3.6L) 996/7 Mezger turbo motor that I'm aware of. Did you see the custom CNC'd billet knife-edged crankshaft? The custom pistons and con rods? Custom race cams? Head studs, machined heads with Ti valves, solid lifter conversion, etc etc etc. They threw everything but the kitchen sink at this motor build. If you haven't - visit the link. It's worth any car enthusiast's time for the pictures alone (just skip around and read EVOMS's posts, it goes quickly).

    Put it this way... for an analogous C63 motor build, it'd need to be something like a 7.0L bored/stroked motor with every last piece of trick race-inspired hardware buttoned-up inside. Which, I think will be a great thing if (when) you guys tackle it. The MHP M156 billet cams are impressive - but dropping cams into a mostly-stock motor with tuning and bolt-ons isn't really quite on par with the level of this 997TT build, as you allege. IMHO. Nor should it be... comparing $20-25k worth of mods (cams/headwork, headers, exhaust, tuning - retail guesstimate) vs. what is undoubtedly a six-figure motor build is kind of silly.
    Brett,

    A few things to take note of regarding our M156/M159 development (sticks work in both motors as we thought they would, we threw a test set in SLS heads to verify last week), there's actually quite a bit more work than one would think in actuallly developing the cams alone.

    For the Porsche build, there are already a few manufacturer's making cams for these motors. For the M156/M159 we are the only ones in the world doing so. There's a huge difference between ordering custom billet sticks and actually designing and making them yourself. So much more in depth knowledge is required about the motor itself vs calling someone else to do it. You have to buy all stock parts, reverse engineer them, fix what the OEMs got wrong or conceded to with regard to performance. Case in point the not convex enough OEM buckets failing to spin when the cam lobe hits causing galling of the soft chilled nodular iron stock cams, and eventually failure of the motor. Our cams alone fix this issue however we also have a different fix that should have come OEM.


    Our billet M156/M159 camshaft program took 14 mos to bring final product to market, now compare that to Crane/Crower with significantly larger budgets coming to market first with Modular 4v cams (4.6/5.4s much simpler motors to work with) a full Three years after they began development.

    As development progressed we realized that we needed to offer a non VCT friendly grind or two to truly tap the potential these motors have to offer. That required the development of even more specific software and spurred us to (if you're going to do it, do it right) begin working on a solid bucket that will allow for a longer valve/stem to allow for additional lift. We are also shoving 34mm exhaust valves (stockers are 33mm in M156 and 34mm in M159) and seats in these heads. I will share more details about these modifications when the new MB site is up. Point being, we didn't outsource any of this, we did/do it all ourselves. This is far far deeper than anyone else has gotten with this platform, and we're not done yet by a longshot.

    Custom rods, pistons, cranks are significantly easier to manufacturer and spec for and there are a host of companies that cater to this market (regardless of make) I can name at least a dozen that produce high quality billet metalic art, bottom ends are all composed of the same parts and are infinitely less complex than the top end of a M156 for instance. Knife edging a crank isn't all that uncommon on race motors either. Yes there is some time specing and machining involved, but there is no magic in the bottom end, it just has to hold the power. Time will tell whether this one was built correctly, as it does with all motors.

    Was the price quote of that motor taken from that thread? I'm having a very hard time believing cost was anywhere near that amount even using the best of the best.

  22. #47
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    612
    Rep Points
    420.1
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    5


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
    Brett,

    A few things to take note of regarding our M156/M159 development (sticks work in both motors as we thought they would, we threw a test set in SLS heads to verify last week), there's actually quite a bit more work than one would think in actuallly developing the cams alone.

    For the Porsche build, there are already a few manufacturer's making cams for these motors. For the M156/M159 we are the only ones in the world doing so. There's a huge difference between ordering custom billet sticks and actually designing and making them yourself. So much more in depth knowledge is required about the motor itself vs calling someone else to do it. You have to buy all stock parts, reverse engineer them, fix what the OEMs got wrong or conceded to with regard to performance. Case in point the not convex enough OEM buckets failing to spin when the cam lobe hits causing galling of the soft chilled nodular iron stock cams, and eventually failure of the motor. Our cams alone fix this issue however we also have a different fix that should have come OEM.


    Our billet M156/M159 camshaft program took 14 mos to bring final product to market, now compare that to Crane/Crower with significantly larger budgets coming to market first with Modular 4v cams (4.6/5.4s much simpler motors to work with) a full Three years after they began development.

    As development progressed we realized that we needed to offer a non VCT friendly grind or two to truly tap the potential these motors have to offer. That required the development of even more specific software and spurred us to (if you're going to do it, do it right) begin working on a solid bucket that will allow for a longer valve/stem to allow for additional lift. We are also shoving 34mm exhaust valves (stockers are 33mm in M156 and 34mm in M159) and seats in these heads. I will share more details about these modifications when the new MB site is up. Point being, we didn't outsource any of this, we did/do it all ourselves. This is far far deeper than anyone else has gotten with this platform, and we're not done yet by a longshot.

    Custom rods, pistons, cranks are significantly easier to manufacturer and spec for and there are a host of companies that cater to this market (regardless of make) I can name at least a dozen that produce high quality billet metalic art, bottom ends are all composed of the same parts and are infinitely less complex than the top end of a M156 for instance. Knife edging a crank isn't all that uncommon on race motors either. Yes there is some time specing and machining involved, but there is no magic in the bottom end, it just has to hold the power. Time will tell whether this one was built correctly, as it does with all motors.

    Was the price quote of that motor taken from that thread? I'm having a very hard time believing cost was anywhere near that amount even using the best of the best.
    Andy,

    Thanks for the comments.

    I guess in my overly-simplistic example, I look at it that boring/stroking is more complicated than not boring/stroking. Changing cranks, con rods, pistons, valves/valvetrain, cams, turbos, intake, exhaust is, seemingly, more involved and complex vs. just doing some of those things (cams, some valves, exhaust) - even if different platforms. Both engines have been around, in the variations being discussed here, for almost exactly the same amount of time - but the P-car high performance aftermarket does lend itself to having more hardware accessibility and options. As far as flat-6 vs. V8, my understanding is that the flat-6 is inherently more complex to work on and modify internals... but that might be incorrect.

    I don't know if it's been posted what their 997.1 EVT1200 build would retail. Six-figure-territory was (is...) just an educated guess on my part.

  23. #48
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    OH
    Posts
    1,454
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
    Andy,

    Thanks for the comments.

    I guess in my overly-simplistic example, I look at it that boring/stroking is more complicated than not boring/stroking. Changing cranks, con rods, pistons, valves/valvetrain, cams, turbos, intake, exhaust is, seemingly, more involved and complex vs. just doing some of those things (cams, some valves, exhaust) - even if different platforms. Both engines have been around, in the variations being discussed here, for almost exactly the same amount of time - but the P-car high performance aftermarket does lend itself to having more hardware accessibility and options. As far as flat-6 vs. V8, my understanding is that the flat-6 is inherently more complex to work on and modify internals... but that might be incorrect.

    I don't know if it's been posted what their 997.1 EVT1200 build would retail. Six-figure-territory was (is...) just an educated guess on my part.
    No harm no foul brother and I don't disagree with what's above at all, doing is harder than not doing 100% correct. Bottom ends are just inherently easier to work on than top ends. They are far more simple, mechanically speaking.

    F6 vs 80 degree V8, not sure any one is harder than the other. The V8 will be more work all else equal, 2 extra cylinders, 8 more valves/seats, etc.

    For sure there are far more parts available off the shelf for P-cars than M156/M159s especially.

    Does anyone know the price tag on this build? Not looking to criticize just curious.

    Thanks

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •