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  1. #1
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    Custom tune vs established tune (Evolve, AA, etc)

    I have an opportunity to get my car custom tuned with a local company - they have been around for a few years and claim to provide a solid tune for the M3. They have lots of satisfied 335i, M5, etc users.

    I asked them about how their tune compares to popular OTS tunes, and was told theirs is better because it accounts for our elevation (3500-4500ft), whereas others are typically developed at sea-level. I thought the BMW DME allowed for this kind of thing, but I'm not a car tech - just an enthusiast who reads a lot.

    I've no reason to disbelieve them; they are good guys with a decent following - no real negatives. What I am worried about is lack of working cars running their tune - and 'the test of time'. We have a fair few M3s in Calgary, but most are stock - those that are modified are typically running ESS or G-power software. I'm thinking there can't be too many running their custom tune.

    Any thoughts on the best route to take? I hear great things about Evolve & co - but also like the opportunity of supporting a local company. How bulletproof is the S65 engine if they made any errors in their code? They up the RPM as part of their tunes to 8600 -- and say it's safe to go to 9000 & beyond to a theoretical 12000? Truth in this?!
    ~

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    A custom tune by a tuner who knows what he is doing, will almost always be better than an off the shelf tune.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigup Click here to enlarge
    I have an opportunity to get my car custom tuned with a local company - they have been around for a few years and claim to provide a solid tune for the M3. They have lots of satisfied 335i, M5, etc users.

    I asked them about how their tune compares to popular OTS tunes, and was told theirs is better because it accounts for our elevation (3500-4500ft), whereas others are typically developed at sea-level. I thought the BMW DME allowed for this kind of thing, but I'm not a car tech - just an enthusiast who reads a lot.

    I've no reason to disbelieve them; they are good guys with a decent following - no real negatives. What I am worried about is lack of working cars running their tune - and 'the test of time'. We have a fair few M3s in Calgary, but most are stock - those that are modified are typically running ESS or G-power software. I'm thinking there can't be too many running their custom tune.

    Any thoughts on the best route to take? I hear great things about Evolve & co - but also like the opportunity of supporting a local company. How bulletproof is the S65 engine if they made any errors in their code? They up the RPM as part of their tunes to 8600 -- and say it's safe to go to 9000 & beyond to a theoretical 12000? Truth in this?!
    I think there is some clarification needed on this. My understanding (would love to be corrected) - is that they are modifying values in a table. These values have to be in a valid range - in other words, it's not really "logic" (conditionals/loops/basic coding constructs) that they are changing.

    I wouldn't be worried about it - yes, they could theoretically tune the car for a high octane that you might not ever run - and yes, by adding RPM to the limit, this wouldn't be good - but I doubt a good tuner would do this.

    I doubt that the S65 could spin to 12000 ever. I also doubt it would be allowed by the DME, and also doubt the processor itself would be fast enough to handle 12000 RPM. Could be wrong.

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    AA and evolve can offer you custom tunes you just need to send them dyno files and they can dyno tune it remotely.
    F10 M5 : ??????
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by THATDONFC Click here to enlarge
    A custom tune by a tuner who knows what he is doing, will almost always be better than an off the shelf tune.
    This.
    An off the shelf tune is designed with a WIDE range of operating and vehicle conditions in mind, a custom tune for YOUR car is just that Click here to enlarge

    However, 12Krpms? I'll be the first to admit not knowing much about the s65 but $#@! NO.
    Click here to enlarge
    MOTIV750, MOTIV P-1000 PI, MOTIV/FUEL-IT! low pressure fuel system, AEM EMS/COBB AP, Aquamist HFS-3, ETS FMIC, SPEC stage 3+ clutch/SS flywheel, BC Racing coilovers and VMR wheels wrapped in Hankook RS3s.

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    I'm going to go with the custom tune - those guys seem know their $#@! and are individually experienced working for other tuning companies. Regarding the 12k maybe I just misunderstood ... that happens to me.

    Primary cat delete + custom tune + DCT tune + euro MDM. Hopefully that'll make the car closer to something I want to keep for a while Click here to enlarge Cheers.
    ~

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by THATDONFC Click here to enlarge
    A custom tune by a tuner who knows what he is doing, will almost always be better than an off the shelf tune.
    Bolded the most important part. Are there any other cars with their custom tunes that you could drive in (confirm smooth drivability) or illustrate long-term reliability?
    COBB AP ProTune by Bren of ///Bren Tuning
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    Maybe 10k with the destroker kit from vac.
    Honda CBR 1000RR, Superbike Supply, Arrow, HRC, BMC, Lee's Cycle, Galfer, EBC, Revzilla, AXO, Dainese, Scorpion Helmets

    Honda Grom, most fun you'll ever have on 2 wheels.

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    sounds like a BPM thing.. if they are competent, there is nothing to worry about, if they are not, then there is. its all about you.

    Ill just say this, Evolves tune leaves me wanting nothing more possible from the N/A S65.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    sounds like a BPM thing.. if they are competent, there is nothing to worry about, if they are not, then there is. its all about you.

    Ill just say this, Evolves tune leaves me wanting nothing more possible from the N/A S65.
    The lead programmer developed & worked for a couple of big name tuning companies who currently sell OTS BMW tunes (I'll keep them nameless for now). I had a ride in one of their tuned/exhaust cars and was sold...! It helps their shop is right near my office.

    I'll be sure to review and post some dynos once it's all done.
    ~

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigup Click here to enlarge
    The lead programmer developed & worked for a couple of big name tuning companies who currently sell OTS BMW tunes (I'll keep them nameless for now). I had a ride in one of their tuned/exhaust cars and was sold...! It helps their shop is right near my office.

    I'll be sure to review and post some dynos once it's all done.
    dyno's are good, but i would prefer to a 60-130 or 1/4 time Click here to enlarge

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    0 out of 3 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Seems like a lot of folks do not really understand how tunes work. In the modern era of advanced ECU's and especially with ionic supersensitive knock detection which manipulates timing very precisely, there is zero advantage to a "custom" tune on these or any other modern car. Unless the tuner removed the safety parameters which than would remove the knock detection and sensors and blow the engine. For example even stock your engine is always trying to get the most timing advance possible given the conditions. A tune depending on whos tune only adjusts timing by 1-2 degrees. For it to hit the new target however the conditions have to be really good. Cool air etc. Otherwise the timing will advance no more than the stock tune under the same circumstances.

    Same goes for all other paremeters. Given our ECU is target based tuning, the ECU will optimize the value within a table. If a car is not running well it inherently won't hit the highest value. If there is bad gas, low elevation etc. All those are sensed by a variety of sensors via, less knock, lower MAP etc. Target based tuning has negated the need for old custom tunes.

    Also nobody custom tunes like ESS. They have one tune that they send to everyone which is exactly what they should do as it is as good as it gets. The ONLy reason for a custsom tune is if you are going to run 100 octane fuel because the timing can only advance to 32 ddegrees in this motor and using 100 octane may allow a higher advance but neglible

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Wannbm5 Click here to enlarge
    Seems like a lot of folks do not really understand how tunes work. In the modern era of advanced ECU's and especially with ionic supersensitive knock detection which manipulates timing very precisely, there is zero advantage to a "custom" tune on these or any other modern car. Unless the tuner removed the safety parameters which than would remove the knock detection and sensors and blow the engine. For example even stock your engine is always trying to get the most timing advance possible given the conditions. A tune depending on whos tune only adjusts timing by 1-2 degrees. For it to hit the new target however the conditions have to be really good. Cool air etc. Otherwise the timing will advance no more than the stock tune under the same circumstances.

    Same goes for all other paremeters. Given our ECU is target based tuning, the ECU will optimize the value within a table. If a car is not running well it inherently won't hit the highest value. If there is bad gas, low elevation etc. All those are sensed by a variety of sensors via, less knock, lower MAP etc. Target based tuning has negated the need for old custom tunes.

    Also nobody custom tunes like ESS. They have one tune that they send to everyone which is exactly what they should do as it is as good as it gets. The ONLy reason for a custsom tune is if you are going to run 100 octane fuel because the timing can only advance to 32 ddegrees in this motor and using 100 octane may allow a higher advance but neglible
    lol

    from a guy who cant show the logs; you sure know a lot about bullshitting Click here to enlarge

    we understand that the parameters here are more advanced than say, on the E46... but since you bring up ESS tunes, havent you seen how Evolves custom tuning, $#@!s all over it..?

    no need for custom tuning, lol.. every day you get better and better and showing your stupidity

  14. #14
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigup Click here to enlarge
    I have an opportunity to get my car custom tuned with a local company - they have been around for a few years and claim to provide a solid tune for the M3. They have lots of satisfied 335i, M5, etc users.

    I asked them about how their tune compares to popular OTS tunes, and was told theirs is better because it accounts for our elevation (3500-4500ft), whereas others are typically developed at sea-level. I thought the BMW DME allowed for this kind of thing, but I'm not a car tech - just an enthusiast who reads a lot.

    I've no reason to disbelieve them; they are good guys with a decent following - no real negatives. What I am worried about is lack of working cars running their tune - and 'the test of time'. We have a fair few M3s in Calgary, but most are stock - those that are modified are typically running ESS or G-power software. I'm thinking there can't be too many running their custom tune.

    Any thoughts on the best route to take? I hear great things about Evolve & co - but also like the opportunity of supporting a local company. How bulletproof is the S65 engine if they made any errors in their code? They up the RPM as part of their tunes to 8600 -- and say it's safe to go to 9000 & beyond to a theoretical 12000? Truth in this?!
    A custom tune is better than off the shelf. AA and Evolve can do custom dyno tunes though and Evolve can even do it remotely.

    I would always choose a custom tune for my conditions and location over canned. Always, why wouldn't it better than one size fits all?

    12000? NO heh. 8600 is fine if you're bearings are fine.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by THATDONFC Click here to enlarge
    A custom tune by a tuner who knows what he is doing, will almost always be better than an off the shelf tune.
    It's this simple.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigup Click here to enlarge
    I'm going to go with the custom tune - those guys seem know their $#@! and are individually experienced working for other tuning companies. Regarding the 12k maybe I just misunderstood ... that happens to me.

    Primary cat delete + custom tune + DCT tune + euro MDM. Hopefully that'll make the car closer to something I want to keep for a while Click here to enlarge Cheers.
    Well post before and after results. Get some vids. Show us them doing their work!

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Wannbm5 Click here to enlarge
    In the modern era of advanced ECU's and especially with ionic supersensitive knock detection which manipulates timing very precisely, there is zero advantage to a "custom" tune on these or any other modern car.
    I disagree, strongly. If that was the case all tunes would be equal and guess what, they aren't.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Wannbm5 Click here to enlarge
    Also nobody custom tunes like ESS. They have one tune that they send to everyone which is exactly what they should do as it is as good as it gets.
    Disagee with this as well. As good as it gets? Nope.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Wannbm5 Click here to enlarge
    Seems like a lot of folks do not really understand how tunes work. In the modern era of advanced ECU's and especially with ionic supersensitive knock detection which manipulates timing very precisely, there is zero advantage to a "custom" tune on these or any other modern car. Unless the tuner removed the safety parameters which than would remove the knock detection and sensors and blow the engine. For example even stock your engine is always trying to get the most timing advance possible given the conditions. A tune depending on whos tune only adjusts timing by 1-2 degrees. For it to hit the new target however the conditions have to be really good. Cool air etc. Otherwise the timing will advance no more than the stock tune under the same circumstances.

    Same goes for all other paremeters. Given our ECU is target based tuning, the ECU will optimize the value within a table. If a car is not running well it inherently won't hit the highest value. If there is bad gas, low elevation etc. All those are sensed by a variety of sensors via, less knock, lower MAP etc. Target based tuning has negated the need for old custom tunes.

    Also nobody custom tunes like ESS. They have one tune that they send to everyone which is exactly what they should do as it is as good as it gets. The ONLy reason for a custsom tune is if you are going to run 100 octane fuel because the timing can only advance to 32 ddegrees in this motor and using 100 octane may allow a higher advance but neglible
    No... Just no...
    Click here to enlarge
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    when did we start getting more idiots over here lol. A custom tune will kill the guy with off the shelf tune hands downs if mods are equal. i can deff say i have seen these tune evolve from the first aftermarket tunes we had at the start. I remember when 360-370whp was where almost everyone was at 2-3 years ago and now the tunes are right around 400whp.
    F10 M5 : ??????
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    Tunes definitely have evolved, A LOT.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
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    at least we all agree on one thing

    EVOLVE ...or face extinction Click here to enlarge

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Custom all the way. Been down both roads with several companies on a high-elevation S54.

    Here is my recent progression - car has 4.10's BTW - expect a bit more power with OE rearend:
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    1. ESS OTS header tune made more power over stock US flash. Nothing drastic - just solid gains. 284rwhp/228rwtq stock tune to 289/234.

    2. Evolve OTS MAF-header tune BLEW the ESS OTS header tune out of the water in power/tq and throttle mapping. Tune was flashed with the car still strapped on the dyno from the ESS run . Topped out at 297/241 without adaptation. Power jumped to 307/240 when I returned to the dyno after street time. Ambient was near 100 degrees the second run and may be why torque was lower.

    3. Custom Evolve tune made gains over the Evolve OTS tune in torque peak and top end power. Power now is at 318/247 after a few iterations. CSL box was added at this point (+ 3-5 hp).

    Cheers,
    Mike

    p.s. Found two dripping injectors during maintenance and some upgrades last month. Should be interesting to see the dyno results after fixing those.

  23. #23
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    Custom tuning helps especially at elevation.

    I mean there is no contest between canned or dyno tuned for your application and mods.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    Just ask evolve or gintani. Given the same modifications on a car running the same fuel. A generic tune from evolve, ess or gintani will make as much as a individual tune. What do you think is special about a unique tune? THe timing can only reach a certain level regardless of the specific car. The VANOS can only be pushed so far etc etc. Unless they push beyond the bounds of safety OR they are custom tuning for a race gas application in which then clearly there could be a benefit but other than that it offers nothing over a regular tune by a good tuner.

    And yes every tune is a bit different from the major players because they all have their idea of what the best ways to tune is. However given they have their strategy for the tune they release to everyone, they are not going to go around and take a different approach for a custom tune if the car is the same as the car getting the off-the-shelf tune.

    Just ask all your contacts sticky or mr evolve and post the answer. If I am wrong ok but the results should be virtually the same with the variables held constant I talked about-essentially same fuel that is under 95 octane as the off shelf tunes push timing to 34 degrees which is the highest you need 95 octane to reach.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Wannbm5 Click here to enlarge
    Just ask evolve or gintani. Given the same modifications on a car running the same fuel. A generic tune from evolve, ess or gintani will make as much as a individual tune.
    I've never heard this from Gintani and they always do custom tunes.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Wannbm5 Click here to enlarge
    What do you think is special about a unique tune? THe timing can only reach a certain level regardless of the specific car. The VANOS can only be pushed so far etc etc. Unless they push beyond the bounds of safety OR they are custom tuning for a race gas application in which then clearly there could be a benefit but other than that it offers nothing over a regular tune by a good tuner.
    You are saying the motor has a limit but that's what a good tuner can find. If everyone was equal all tunes woul be equal, they aren't.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Wannbm5 Click here to enlarge
    And yes every tune is a bit different from the major players because they all have their idea of what the best ways to tune is.
    Ah, so you agree, excellent.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Wannbm5 Click here to enlarge
    Just ask all your contacts sticky or mr evolve and post the answer. If I am wrong ok but the results should be virtually the same with the variables held constant I talked about-essentially same fuel that is under 95 octane as the off shelf tunes push timing to 34 degrees which is the highest you need 95 octane to reach.
    I mean no offense, but I was playing around with tunes for the M3 back in what, 2009? And you're on this now? I can tell you different tunes made different results from personal experience and when a tune from another car was put on mine my car made more power and torque once that tune was custom dyno tuned. So I really don't know what you're saying.

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