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  1. #1
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    Some addl fuel system testing

    Results of a test I just posted on n54tech. For those that are interested in this sort of thing. Test car is our 135i running 100% factory fuel system, E85, with an inline pump *after* the regulator to allow for higher than factory low fuel pressures. We're finding with the factory and modified high pressure pumps an inability to hold full pressure below 5500rpm at high torque levels when you push the system with certain combinations of high torque, a richer AFR targets, and 100% E85. I am hoping raising the lower inlet pressure is the answer. So far this is the only test I've done and the results were not entirely what I hoped for.

    I completed some initial inline pump testing this morning. The factory low pressure sensor tilts at 87psi so I had to plumb in a mechanical gauge to monitor low pressure. You can see in the video normal fuel pressure is 70psi. Then when I click the aux pump on it jumps up to 140psi at idle. I then pull on to the track and do a short 2-3-4 run and you'll see low fuel pressure hover around 100psi.

    This log is from that same video above and summarizes what I'm seeing with this. During steady single gear runs it seems to hold high pressure as well as if not better than the normal in tank Walbro @ 70psi. But during sudden load changes (like shifts) high pressure is still crapping out even with 100psi of low pressure behind it. Although it does quickly recover. Maybe a surge tank is needed? I'll have to mull over the data some more on this one.




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    When are you getting the Vargas HPFP..?
    For Sale:

    - NX Express complete wet kit with Plug & Play fuel adapter for BMW 335i

    - FBO parts here LINK


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by boosted-M Click here to enlarge
    When are you getting the Vargas HPFP..?
    At some point in the near future. But, I'm afraid it's not the answer to our < 5500rpm fuel pressure issues. Does wonders at higher RPM though.
    Burger Motorsports
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    as little I know about fuel systems I would think a surge tank would help. It shouldn't be too hard to install one inline should it?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    But, I'm afraid it's not the answer to our < 5500rpm fuel pressure issues.
    Why not?

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    At some point in the near future. But, I'm afraid it's not the answer to our < 5500rpm fuel pressure issues. Does wonders at higher RPM though.
    how badly is the fuel pressure dropping though? going by the (limited) data on the upgraded HPFP, it dips RIGHT in the midrange then recovers?

    are there worse issues that have to be overcome still?
    boop

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    When it drops to around 6 in JB4 logs then you have serious problems. DME throws a fuel injection cutoff fault among other potential issues. In a perfect world it would hold close to its target with any boost / afr / fuel mix. Also keep in mind the high pressure pump has an easier time moving fuel at higher RPM than lower RPM.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 05-16-2013 at 08:27 PM.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    When it drops to around 6 in JB4 logs then you have serious problems. DME throws a fuel injection cutoff fault among other potential issues. In a perfect world it would hold close to its target with any boost / afr / fuel mix. Also keep in mind the high pressure pump has an easier time moving fuel at higher RPM than lower RPM.
    so if i'm reading it right, around 5250rpm in graph 1, a bit after shifting everything takes a nosedive and it hits the bad 6... ?

    how come graph 2 is a lot more stable looking? same with graph 3, not like 1 where trims drop out and takes fuel pressure with it? AFR's look a lot more stable too?
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    so if i'm reading it right, around 5250rpm in graph 1, a bit after shifting everything takes a nosedive and it hits the bad 6... ?

    how come graph 2 is a lot more stable looking? same with graph 3, not like 1 where trims drop out and takes fuel pressure with it? AFR's look a lot more stable too?
    Fuel pressure drives everything. When it drops then trims and AFR go wacky as the DME struggles to sort it out.

    The second run was just another run at 100psi where it happened to not nose dive until the 3->4. Maybe it's on the cusp of functioning properly. I guess what is missing from this log mix is a map on say map 1 where you'd see the actual fuel pressure target. The third log shows its working OK during steady state single gear pulls. At least, it was on that pull.

    Since the pressure drop comes up at the shift most noticeably there may be an issue with the factory fuel mass control valve mapping. I connected a meter earlier today and noticed its giving a peak of 50% PWM. What I don't know is whether or not that is fully open so I'll need to bench test it.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Why not?
    What's happening at 5000rpm is the million dollar question. I have my theories of course, so I'll keep poking around at possible solutions. It would be nice of others experienced with fuel system design could chime in with their opinion on the data and where to go next in testing.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Fuel pressure drives everything. When it drops then trims and AFR go wacky as the DME struggles to sort it out.

    The second run was just another run at 100psi where it happened to not nose dive until the 3->4. Maybe it's on the cusp of functioning properly. I guess what is missing from this log mix is a map on say map 1 where you'd see the actual fuel pressure target. The third log shows its working OK during steady state single gear pulls. At least, it was on that pull.

    Since the pressure drop comes up at the shift most noticeably there may be an issue with the factory fuel mass control valve mapping. I connected a meter earlier today and noticed its giving a peak of 50% PWM. What I don't know is whether or not that is fully open so I'll need to bench test it.
    mm fair enough

    so the logs 2,3 are just managing to hold on (can see it dips a tiny bit), even though it's pretty much the same situation a log 1 - if you were to add a bit more boost/fuel demands, i assume the dip would be even greater?

    good to know you're on top of this sorta thing, it'd be good if it turns out that the dips can be taken care of

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    What's happening at 5000rpm is the million dollar question. I have my theories of course, so I'll keep poking around at possible solutions. It would be nice of others experienced with fuel system design could chime in with their opinion on the data and where to go next in testing.
    hopefully it's not just how the HPFP works, and it can indeed be fixed.
    boop

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    Terry what tq levels are you at when it is dipping down. Have you tested it on the dyno? Just curious.

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    I am seeing midrange pressure drops with the upgraded pump still. Seeing as low as a 7-8 in logs but recovers to 11-15 in the high range.
    SYVECS Standalone l Motiv Port Injection with Fuel It Stage 3 LPFP l MFactory LSD l CFS Racing Radiator l m3 front and rear control arms l ST Coilover System Vargas Stage 2+ Fully Upgraded Turbos l Vargas Inlet System l VRSF DP | VRSF FMIC | Alpina TCM Flash | BMS Trunk Meth l Nitrous Express Dry l Evolution Raceworks Charge Pipe with n20/meth bungs l Vargas HPFP Upgrade v1 l Agency Power Exhaust with n55 mid pipes l Apex AERO-7 Lightweight Wheels l Toyo R888s



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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Terry what tq levels are you at when it is dipping down. Have you tested it on the dyno? Just curious.
    This is map 7 stock turbos so its around 480wtq. I have not tested this fuel pump setup on the dyno but during steady single gear pulls it seems OK. I'm starting to suspect something else is going on with the control valve during shifts but I won't be able to spend any more time with it until next week. Up next I'll need to do a more permanent mount of the line under the car, rig the JB4 up to control it, etc. At the very least it works just as well as the Walbro in tank thus far and I'm really in love with the concept of how this would work.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Njz Click here to enlarge
    I am seeing midrange pressure drops with the upgraded pump still. Seeing as low as a 7-8 in logs but recovers to 11-15 in the high range.
    The midrange drop is the killer. I may try a beefier pump that can hold ~120psi at the pump inlet. Will also have to spoof the factory low pressure signal to the DME thinks its running ~72psi.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Njz Click here to enlarge
    I am seeing midrange pressure drops with the upgraded pump still. Seeing as low as a 7-8 in logs but recovers to 11-15 in the high range.
    Its weird Terry is getting limps or codes. We never got a single limp or CEL running almost 600 WTQ between 5000-redline. I mentioned we still had a slight pressure drop in my HPFP annoucement, but where we were completely maxing trims and getting a misfire before the fuel system change. We now have to pull fuel and were able to make 673 WHP no meth when we couldnt make over 573 with no upgrades. I do think LPFP might have something do with it. I sent terry some logs. Before upgrade, we lost pressure to under 1000 PSI for almost a full 2000 RPM range, changing nothing except doing the upgrade. We saw pressure dope to around 1100 PSI for only about 500 rpm, that was it. I am sure Terry can get this figured out and T, the work on the LPFP is awesome. I wired a relay into the parallel system today to get some load off the DME pump circut. Should help keep the wiring temps down.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Its weird Terry is getting limps or codes. We never got a single limp or CEL running almost 600 WTQ between 5000-redline. I mentioned we still had a slight pressure drop in my HPFP annoucement, but where we were completely maxing trims and getting a misfire before the fuel system change. We now have to pull fuel and were able to make 673 WHP no meth when we couldnt make over 573 with no upgrades. I do think LPFP might have something do with it. I sent terry some logs. Before upgrade, we lost pressure to under 1000 PSI for almost a full 2000 RPM range, changing nothing except doing the upgrade. We saw pressure dope to around 1100 PSI for only about 500 rpm, that was it. I am sure Terry can get this figured out and T, the work on the LPFP is awesome. I wired a relay into the parallel system today to get some load off the DME pump circut. Should help keep the wiring temps down.
    The code that comes up is 29DC Cyl. injection switch-off. Basically, it means fuel pressure is so low the DME goes to a limp mode as it's worried it won't atomize/inject properly. Now keep in mind we're running a fuel pressure bias on top of this, so the DME thinks its making even less pressure than it actually is. So maybe its making 900psi instead of 700psi. Of course on stock turbos this is all manageable. Many customers run map 7 on 100% E85 without issue. But it requires a leaner than ideal air/fuel ratio. And maybe a little less boost down low than I'd otherwise like on 100% E85. With larger turbos, it's much more difficult to manage. The bottom line is if your fuel pressure is dropping below target it's simply not moving enough fuel and becomes a potential risk area. Even if we mask the codes.

    Running 100psi instead of 70psi is definitely showing some promise though. Maybe 120psi is the hot ticket. Or maybe this is all a waste of my time. Should know in a couple more weeks Click here to enlarge

    I know there are a lot of tinkers out there and I wish more of them would share their data/experiences so we could have more reference points. The only person I presume has tried this higher low pressure rig is Shiv and he's never said a word about it. Knowing him if it had worked well he'd already be trying to cash in. So, there is a chance this is a dead end. But if this doesn't do it then I'm out of ideas other than a completely redesigned fuel pump (which will never happen) or a 7th injector setup (lame).
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 05-16-2013 at 09:23 PM.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    This is map 7 stock turbos so its around 480wtq. I have not tested this fuel pump setup on the dyno but during steady single gear pulls it seems OK. I'm starting to suspect something else is going on with the control valve during shifts but I won't be able to spend any more time with it until next week. Up next I'll need to do a more permanent mount of the line under the car, rig the JB4 up to control it, etc. At the very least it works just as well as the Walbro in tank thus far and I'm really in love with the concept of how this would work.
    wait does this mean you're running inline instead of parallel?

    weren't you putting down the idea of an inline pump in favour of a parallel pump not too long ago?
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    wait does this mean you're running inline instead of parallel?

    weren't you putting down the idea of an inline pump in favour of a parallel pump not too long ago?
    Sounds like you're confusing these tests results with the in tank pre regulator fuel pump tests we did. As a result of those tests I came to the conclusion that a single Walbro in tank or a single Walbro + the factory pump in parallel offered the best overall performance @ 70psi.

    http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showpo...34&postcount=1
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Sounds like you're confusing these tests results with the in tank pre regulator fuel pump tests we did. As a result of those tests I came to the conclusion that a single Walbro in tank or a single Walbro + the factory pump in parallel offered the best overall performance @ 70psi.

    http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showpo...34&postcount=1
    no i remember the original testing/upgrade where you put another pump in tank... but isn't the vishnu offering in in-line booster too?

    i distinctly remember the inline pump being slammed in favour of parallel for various reasos

    so now you've warmed up to the idea of having more pressure stepping up instead of flow on the low pressure side?

    ED: never mind me, i never read that thread you linked, i had no idea you'd already tested an inline and showed positive results already.

    though yeah that Setup 6: Factory pump + Walbro E85 In Parallel. 425 lph. is what i was aware of as being the consensus.. DAMN that's impressive flow increase though :O

    so yeah never mind, this is a different test trying to help out the HPFP with pressure rather than low end flow

    is there still the parallel pump setup in this setup WITH the inline as well?

    if you're running the OEM fuel pump with no parallel, and JUST a booster pump, how are you getting enough LPH flow regardless of pressure to support high power? or is that not a worry at this stage of testing?
    Last edited by Flinchy; 05-16-2013 at 11:07 PM.
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    no i remember the original testing/upgrade where you put another pump in tank... but isn't the vishnu offering in in-line booster too?

    i distinctly remember the inline pump being slammed in favour of parallel for various reasos

    so now you've warmed up to the idea of having more pressure stepping up instead of flow on the low pressure side?

    ED: never mind me, i never read that thread you linked, i had no idea you'd already tested an inline and showed positive results already.
    We run an inline pump in our E92, and a single Walbro (normally) in our 135i. For this testing the 135i has the factory in tank pump. The inline is generally inferior for lower pressure targets but easier to install. Our inline DIY is ~$100 while the Vishnu inline option is $600+ and I have slammed their setup for the cost, dramatic marketing, and cheap pump used.

    For very high pressure targets like we're going after with this testing an inline approach must be used despite the flow sacrifice.

    If there was not sufficient flow on the low pressure side then low fuel pressure would drop rather than sticking at 100. As you'd be sucking the fuel from the pressure sensor in to the engine faster than the pumps can push it back to maintain pressure.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    We run an inline pump in our E92, and a single Walbro (normally) in our 135i. For this testing the 135i has the factory in tank pump. The inline is generally inferior for lower pressure targets but easier to install. Our inline DIY is ~$100 while the Vishnu inline option is $600+ and I have slammed their setup for the cost, dramatic marketing, and cheap pump used.

    For very high pressure targets like we're going after with this testing an inline approach must be used despite the flow sacrifice.

    If there was not sufficient flow on the low pressure side then low fuel pressure would drop rather than sticking at 100. As you'd be sucking the fuel from the pressure sensor in to the engine faster than the pumps can push it back to maintain pressure.
    yep, fair enough

    could you run a dual pump setup AND the inline, or would it be too much flow for it to handle and the inline pump itself becomes a restriction? or simply no point in it?

    i mean... if you're trying to fix the midrange dip in high pressure by stepping up low pressure, but you can't flow enough fuel to support massive power in the upper RPM's...? one step at a time? haha

    okay, makes sense, now that i actually know wtf is going on i'm even more interested in future tests Click here to enlarge
    boop

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    Since low fuel pressure is not dropping then the stock in tank + cheap inline (post regulator) move enough flow to support the overall tuning. If at some point high fuel pressure is dropping below target then more pump will be needed.

    What interests me with this testing is coming up with a single pump solution you install under the car without having to crack open the tank, that with no other hardware fuel system changes addresses the low RPM fuel pressure issues we're experiencing, and that integrates with the JB4 for control. That is all based on the premise that running more than 70psi on the low pressure side extends the fueling range of the high pressure pump < 5500rpm. I've yet to prove that premise.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Terry, I understand you put the inline pump after the regulator so that the additional pressure won't be bled off. However, is it possible that the regulator is bleeding off fuel BEFORE it reaches the inline pump, subsequently lowering the effectiveness of that pump? Or do you think there is a low enough pressure zone after the in-tank pump to prevent fuel from being dumped before the inline unit?

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    Is the valve you're talking about on the hpfp the one that regulates pressure? If so I'd definitely try to find the trend between pwm, pressure and rpm. Probably modifiable in a table still hidden, but "position after shift" pwm could be reason for crash/recovery... maybe in part due to low load targets? Regardless if you can find out how it works the answer could be simple and electrical/tuning for the post shift dip.

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