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  1. #1
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    cp-e Standback Update CAN

    cp-e has reconfigured the Standback to use the CAN data from the DME in the tune. This was not possible before as the processor that the standback uses was completely maxed out and had no more capability. The chip manufacturer however, recently updated that item and now it has more capability with the same coding allowing Lou, cp-e's genius EE, to add CAN functionality to the Standback. We hooked up the BT tool to my car and he "listened" in on the transfer of the target boost data. He then emulated that process on the standback such that the it can now open a CAN session and request the realtime target boost of the n54 DME. He then spits this information back to the DME while independently controlling the wastegates. THe result is a completely open throttle, a completely happy DME, and COMPLETE boost control.

    Before this the standback took over boost from the DME at boost greater than 5 psi. At values lower than that the Standback gave the car what it wanted. This was no small feat considering that the Standback was in complete control of the wastegate solenoids.

    With the new CAN data it can take control at much lower boost pressures. The standback now assumes control at 2 psi which is just slightly higher that cruise. This coupled with the 30x30 boost control table allows for extremely fine control of boost pressure and immediate response. The following are my boost map followed by graphs from a log I took on this morning's commute.

    Click here to enlarge

    These first three graphs show the excellent boost control. Depress the accelerator a slightly, get a little boost. Press slightly harder, boost increases in a controlled fashion according to the boost map above. These stairstep like boost graphs are the result of me depressing the accelerator more and more and finally all the way. It demonstrates how controlled the boost is.

    My tune uses RPM vs MAP for the fueling and timing. At each boost level and rpm there is a specific fueling and timing parameter programmed, e.g. at 10 psi I pull 1 deg of timing and add 5% fuel (subtracting 5% from the wideband signal so the car adds fuel). At every point on the graphs my fueling and timing are controlled with respect to the rpm and boost.

    Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

    Mat it and you get max boost and open throttle.
    Click here to enlarge

    It is truly remarkable. Instant control without any DME weirdness. The car is ultra responsive and hasn't lost any driveability whatsoever. THe map is completely customizeable so you can literally make the car do whatever you want.

    These same map tables exist for fueling, timing using cps offsetting, meth addition (yes, the SB will control a meth pump and has failsafe algorithms), and fuel pressure.

    It may be somewhat late to the game but, it truly is the state of the art for controlling the n54.
    Last edited by boom; 05-21-2010 at 10:33 PM.

  2. #2
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    very nice Click here to enlarge

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    This is big news. So, the V4 was the only one to use the CANbus right? Now that the Standback can do it, it is the most advanced, full featured, option on the market, correct?

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    Congrats to the CPE crew! We're adding CAN to the JB3 now for different purposes but given the stand alone solenoid control implementation pulling the boost target is very useful.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Congrats to the CPE crew! We're adding CAN to the JB3 now for different purposes but given the stand alone solenoid control implementation pulling the boost target is very useful.
    For what purpose and will it affect pricing?

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    Grats to CP-E it does look like an awesome product but they may be a little late to market. It will be tough to take market share from Terry or Shiv.

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    We have some BIG projects in the works that will more than help us break into the market. All of the tuning options out are great in their own way. When we do our full release people will be able to make purchases based of real facts and real data. The Standback will be the only FULLY tunable ECU on the market. You can plug in and forget it or go to town on 30x30 cell maps controlling boost, timing, fueling, fuel psi, meth, etc. while the CANbus setup handles the rest keeping the DME happy.
    Custom Performance Engineering
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    This is big news. So, the V4 was the only one to use the CANbus right? Now that the Standback can do it, it is the most advanced, full featured, option on the market, correct?
    Congratulations to CP-E!!

    I am curious to the answer to the question above Sticky. I am trying to identify where the CP-E is more advanced or full featured myself. The major difference between the two that I can see is that the CP-E allows more control of the tuning to the user. This is not to say that the Procede does not have the same capability, but we have decided to market differently. The CP-E may appeal to some who have an in depth understanding of the DME and how it works, and also have the desire to do more tuning than the prepacked maps. Maybe I am missing something about the CP-E product???

    I would also like to point out that CP-E may have introduced CAN, but atleast currently, they only do a small subset of what the Procede does with that interface, so there is quite some evidence that the Procede is more advanced and featured.

    Anyway, I do honestly congratulate CP-E, but I just wanted to discuss some of the claims that CP-E has surpassed Procede as the most advanced and feature rich tune available for this platform.

    Cheers,

    Adrian

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    Congratulations to CP-E!!

    I am curious to the answer to the question above Sticky. I am trying to identify where the CP-E is more advanced or full featured myself. The major difference between the two that I can see is that the CP-E allows more control of the tuning to the user. This is not to say that the Procede does not have the same capability, but we have decided to market differently. The CP-E may appeal to some who have an in depth understanding of the DME and how it works, and also have the desire to do more tuning than the prepacked maps. Maybe I am missing something about the CP-E product???

    I would also like to point out that CP-E may have introduced CAN, but atleast currently, they only do a small subset of what the Procede does with that interface, so there is quite some evidence that the Procede is more advanced and featured.

    Anyway, I do honestly congratulate CP-E, but I just wanted to discuss some of the claims that CP-E has surpassed Procede as the most advanced and feature rich tune available for this platform.

    Cheers,

    Adrian
    Well, as I understand it, the Standback is a more fully tuneable option and gives the end user more control? So you say it allows the user more control, then the V4 lacks in this department in comparison based on your own statement.

    However, you are stating the Procede is capable of doing everything the Standback does?

    I'm not sure how you can state it does a small subset of what the Procede does with CAN when we don't have the final product yet. Jumping the gun a bit... however, I'm sure you know your own CAN parameters quite well and I don't doubt they are robust.

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    The standback is fully tunable. I say that with the utmost seriousness. If you look at that first image you'll seethe list of options for tuning. It's the designer's software so things are different than what's released, e.g. the MAF tree is fueling via the widebands but you get the idea. That same 30x30 table is used for all of the elements listed. Fuel adder frequncy can be set for a meth pump, nitrous, or additional injectors. The PID parameters fore wastegate control are tunable. The software will log over 60 variables to excel and even the variables can be specified if you want to pare down the list. You name it and it can be down with minimal effort. Yes, it is complex. Yes, you need to know what you're doing to use it safely. Predesigned maps are available though and local shops can use the software for custom tuning, and their customer service is great.

  11. #11
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    i keep reading the 30x30 cell tables.. what do the other tunes use?

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    Post Edited due to violation of Guest Vendor rules.

    Adrian and Vishnu, we welcome your participation and have very flexible guest vendor rules when a topic is started by someone else and happens to be about your product. However, this topic is about a CP-E product and it is not fair to supporting vendors who spend considerable time and money here to have Vishnu market at their expense.

    Please do not take this the wrong way as we all appreciate your technical contributions but Vishnu has been given TREMENDOUS leeway and is starting to encroach on territory that weakens the positions of vendors who have supported BB from the beginning. We do not want to make it sound as if we do not want your participation, as we do, however, the focus here is the CP-E Standback and not the Procede.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu Click here to enlarge

    I think the CP-E is a good product and there are other good products also, but if you are going to compare it to the Procede, be prepared for me to defend the Procede position.
    I do not think anyone expected otherwise Click here to enlarge

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    lol

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    I'll admit that the PROcede has more funcitonalilty at the moment. Realize however, that you're on version 4 with numerous revisions from v1 to v2, v2 to v3, and now v3 to v4 so we'll appreciate your patience... Before saying categorically that the PROcede can do everthing that the standback can do please produce some boost data in a usable viewable format. The typical vishnu logs are one inch high and 10 inches across preventing any sort of real analysis. Produce boost data as I have that shows a stable and controllable boost pressure. IIRC that is why the procede is not used for big turbo upgrades because it can not control boost.

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    Jason, I hate to say it, but you couldnt be more wrong. The reason those logs look small is because people are log various parameters. Ill show you a log, give me 10 min Ill have to find something

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    Jason, I hate to say it, but you couldnt be more wrong. The reason those logs look small is because people are log various parameters. Ill show you a log, give me 10 min Ill have to find something
    So when is the standback going back on your car? Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    So when is the standback going back on your car? Click here to enlarge
    My car has been at the dealer for over a month now, i opened a lemon case against bmw. IF it goes my way, no tune is ever going back onto the n54 as I won't have one.

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    I am living out of a hotel room for the past month and like i said, without my car for over month now. However a good buddy of mine recently put in his procede a couple days ago and sent me a log to check out. I looked at the log on my work computer, not my tuning computer, and I zoomed in the best i could. Log shows rpm and boost. Boost is right around 16psi. Unfortunatly he did not log boost target, but if you do, you will see how it follows it spot on. As you can see, boost stable and stays within 1 psi throughout this rpm. However like I said, i have noway of knowing the boost target as he didn't log it, but its the best I can do. There were tons of logs like this posted by jpsimon on e90, but I simply don't feel like searching lol.

    Click here to enlarge

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    ...I want people to really consider what benefits are rather than just listing them off, and saying that this tune beats that tune because it has a bigger list. I would be quite happy for someone to say that the CP-E offers the most end user adjustability. No questions there. My question is whether they are more advanced and feature rich, and whether this low level user tuning provides benefit to real users.
    I think you're sort of blurring the point here I think in trying to talk up the Vishnu. Is your point that:

    A) The Vishnu is more "feature rich"
    B) The Vishnu is more advanced

    or

    C) The Vishnu provides more benefit to the end-user

    ...because all are unique arguments.

    You came in with guns blazing and brought up all three of those points despite the fact that the question was which product is more advanced, which is unfortunately somewhat subjective without looking at hardware specs. If you're going to argue that the Vishnu is just generically "better," then I think you'll improve your position by honing your argument.

    It looks like we can at least we can agree that the Standback has more low-level tunability...

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    Adrian, you do A LOT of hand waiving in this post.

    The part I put in bold is a bit over the top. Can you elaborate as to how the DME stops end-users from changing boost, timing, or fueling on the Standback? It sounds to me like you're saying making custom maps for the Vishnu is incredibly difficult because of the complexity of the DME, but I know from experience that it's very easy to do using the Standback. So, I'm not sure I follow you on that one.

    As far as finding a user that needs more adjustability, how about me? I like adding and removing timing in discrete regions of the powerband, something that doesn't look possible using the Autotune feature. Can I change the air/fuel mixture using Autotune, or is that too advanced because of the DME? Or what about fuel pressure?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    The approach you've taken absolutely caters to a wider market, but does that make it more usable, or advanced? By definition I'd say no.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    As I said when I started this post, I'm still not sure exactly what you're arguing in this thread. I'm not sure if you're arguing that your system is more advanced, or feature rich, or whatever, but if you're simply looking for a title I won't stand in the way in claiming it. See below...

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    I want people to really consider what benefits are rather than just listing them off, and saying that this tune beats that tune because it has a bigger list.
    This is really the issue at hand here, and has less to do with which is more "advanced" or whatever. Sure, the Standback might not have the CANBus capabilities that the Vishnu has yet, but do they really amount to anything to make you go faster, or have more control over the car? I may not have throttle smoothing and boost readouts, but when it comes to having freedom to adjust the parameters that matter (air/fuel, timing, and boost), yes, the Standback is more advanced. But seriously, who cares which is more "advanced" if one makes you go faster than the other?

    JMHO from the outside looking in.

  21. #21
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    IMO, cps offsetting is cute and prevents iditos from knocking incase they run the car too agressive. Is it vital? Not really, look at the jb3. A/f ratio tuning, all 3 have this dialed it seems. Terry is now working on running richer maps for nitrous users and as demostrated by formerboost, it worked out GREAT. Shiv also has some nitrous maps and they're a little leaner but still look very nice. The standback you can dial in you own a/f ratio, however based on experience and what I've read form terry, this car doesn't really give a $#@! about a/f ratio as long as your are not stupid rich/lean. So this leaves us with boost. When I first got the n54 i looked at the procede and the juice box and simpled BASHED them to all hell. Got banned for e90. Both tunes looked like mickey mouse $#@! with their boost control. Since then shiv copied the standback, and terry seemed to sorta smooth his stuff out. However, the standback is more stable and lets you dial in your own boost curve with actual numbers. Thats cool, however will it make you go faster? No it won't, so thats a mute point imo. Changing boost from 15.5 at 5500 rpm to 15.8 cause you could, is nice, but won't result in much of anything. lol The jb3/procede have different boost curves however both work great, With the standback, you make your own.

    Take 3 cars, jb3/procede/standback or whateer tune you want.....if boost is the same on those car and the throttle stays open, neither of them wll pull. So pick whatever you want lol and feels the best while providing simple easy features.

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    If that's the case, why does the JB3 outperform the PROcede at the track? If shiv's tune is the bombdiggity, why does Terry's setup have more numbers? As for how they all three line up, I'm game any time someone wants to go. I'm fully bolted. Bring a similar car and we'll run. You pick the map, I'll set the boost to be equal and we'll see. It likely won't mean much and be a driver's race.

    This will get VERY interesting when big single snails replace the stock twins...

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    BTW it looks like AR design jsut started up the single turbo n54, they are going to tune it. Based on their history, i wouldnt be surprised if they used Terry as they work close with him.

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    I truly wish them all the best. I hope Terry can pull it off. His success is remarkable.

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    BTW it looks like AR design jsut started up the single turbo n54, they are going to tune it. Based on their history, i wouldnt be surprised if they used Terry as they work close with him.
    I've been talking with Andrew for awhile about it. With some hardware changes we could do it but for what they are looking to do I really think the standback is the perfect fit. The combination of fully independent boost control and complete table by table tuning access has single turbo kit written all over it! Click here to enlarge

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